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i'm revealing myself more now to you

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than i have ever done in a in a

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in an interview thank you man it's been

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quite an experience i'm grateful to you

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it's not been a usual interview i give

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three two three four interviews per week

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and usually it's the same thing and

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this has not been that so i'm grateful

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a couple days ago i had the pleasure of

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sitting down with bernardo castro

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who holds two phds one in computer

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science and the other in philosophy

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he also has a host of accolades so for

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example he's worked at cern

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he's also sold a fairly large company to

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ibm

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when someone like that comes along and

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suggests that all we experience all that

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we see

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all that is traditional physical matter

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is actually

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taking place within the mind and that

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we're all part of one mind

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that is a particular philosophical

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doctrine called analytical idealism

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then i take him seriously and i'm glad

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that i did

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because i had one of the best if not the

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best conversations

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that i've ever had let alone on this

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podcast we were scheduled to talk for

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approximately two hours and we ended up

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going

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for almost five the time stamps as usual

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are in the description so feel free to

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skip ahead to whichever section you like

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and i wanted to put a special thank you

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out there to my patreon supporters

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i do this with almost all my time so

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the small amount or the large amount

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that you give helps me tremendously

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thank you thank you so much and please

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enjoy the podcast

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well i want you to know that i admire

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you i've watched

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your work for the past maybe two weeks

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one and a half weeks

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straight just inputting you into my

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brain

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and i think you're the most articulate

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and coherent

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not only of those who are idealists but

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of those who oppose materialism and

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physicalism in general

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thank you sir when i get to the

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questions about mind at large

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i do have questions about well given

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that mind at large

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or mind itself is naturally deceptive

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well how do we discern what's true from

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what's not

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so we'll get to that later i think as a

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great overview for the audience instead

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of

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explicitly talking about what your views

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are why don't you talk about how you

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came upon your

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views because most of the people who

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oppose materialism or physicalism i find

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they

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are raised in a vedic tradition or a

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buddhist tradition or hindu tradition

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and they already have a predisposition

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to wanting consciousness to be one

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and united with all but yours isn't this

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a priori

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conclusion where you then looked at the

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data and tried to fit it to what you

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believe

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i think that's interesting i think that

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you need to tell the audience about

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where you started and

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where you got to and in there talk about

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your theories so i

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you know i've always been a philosopher

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in the sense that i've

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always asked the big questions and what

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is this what is the world what is life

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what is this strange condition of

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being alive and having to eat and

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breathe to find to fight

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entropy i mean this this has always

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interested me

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and then i i very early went to computer

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engineering school i had just turned 17

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because i was fascinated by computers

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and artificial intelligence

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since very early and then five years of

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that and you have very little time to

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ask philosophical questions when you're

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doing

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computer engineering there's a lot to

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absorb

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but later on already i was in my

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late 20s i had already gotten my my

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first phd

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um and i was on precisely what was the

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computer

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processor architectures reconfigurable

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computing

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which is you know processors that can

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rewire themselves during program

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execution

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um which was all the rave uh in the late

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90s and early 2000s now it's sort of

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incorporated into into commercial

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processors

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but at the time it was very innovative

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and then i was already in the early days

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of my professional life

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first few years and ai continued to be a

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big interest of mine i i was even

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as a hobby i was at home thinking about

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you know how do you get

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a processor not only to be intelligent

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but to be sentient and of course i had

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hidden materialist assumptions behind

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that question because i thought of

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consciousness of sentience as something

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that you create

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that you bring about that you bring into

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being

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and i was cracking my head about you

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know how to make a computer sentient and

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i was reading the work of people like um

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that the finnish guy that used to work

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at nokia research i forgot his name he

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wrote a book called

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conscious machines pentihaikonen

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his his name pentihaikonen

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and and he had what to me at the time

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was the most compelling articulation of

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how to create artificial sentience

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at the time but at some point i realized

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that you know

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this was a nag i couldn't crack because

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i was starting from wrong assumptions

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and i had this

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insight after reading a paper by david

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chalmers in which he

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discussed the heart problem of

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consciousness he didn't solve it he just

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framed it and framing a problem well is

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half the solution

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because it makes you alert to the issues

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that

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you you had been ignoring before and

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when i read the statement of the problem

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it clicked i thought i'm coming about it

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from a completely arbitrary direction

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i'm making

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arbitrary assumptions consciousness is

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not something you create

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it's that within which every creation

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happens including the creation of a

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computer

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and i am conflating artificial

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intelligence with artificial

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sentience these are completely different

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things and we have a lot of reasons to

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think that one of them will be

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successful namely strong ai

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but we have absolutely no reason to

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think that we can create an artificially

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conscious being any more reason than we

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we have to think that by simulating

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kidney function on my computer

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the computer will urinate on my desk

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and that for me was sort of the trigger

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to rethink everything to examine every

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hidden assumption i had

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ever made to sort of completely

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refurbish my worldview

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along more reasonable explicit

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coherent lines and it was

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it was quite an enterprise

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but ultimately i came to answers that

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were

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quite satisfying to me in the sense that

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i couldn't shoot them down i couldn't

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shoot down

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my own answers after a few years and i

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was only glad to realize that hey

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the stages of the hindus valley three

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and a half thousand years ago

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had come to the same answers and and so

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did

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uh people in the western tradition plato

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schopenhauer automation 2 jung

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and that surely gave reassurance but i

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came to my

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views based on my own

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painful process of reasoning looking at

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the evidence examining my own

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assumptions

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and parting with those that were

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incoherent and illogical

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even if they were aligned with

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the assumptions and views that i

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inherited from my culture

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so what are your conclusions why don't

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you state the metaphysical assumptions

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of materialism and how they compare and

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contrast with yours

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okay for a materialist there is

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experience

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but it's created inside our brains in a

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way that nobody

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can can describe explicitly and

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coherently

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and there is a world outside experience

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which is

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pure abstraction it's a world that has

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no colors has no sense has no flavors

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because colors

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scents and flavors are experiences

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created in our brain

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inside our skull that's that's what

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that's the assumption of materialism

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and so the real world of materialism is

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a world of abstraction

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describable through quantities a list of

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quantities such as

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mass charge momentum position amplitude

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frequency

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uh weight and so on and so forth and if

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you provide

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this complete list of numbers then

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you've said

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everything there is to say about matter

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about the world outside which of course

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leaves out all qualities

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but qualities according to materialism

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are somehow epiphenomenal they are

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created by

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matter inside the brain within our

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skulls so the world of our experience

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for materialism exists entirely within

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our heads

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if you look up to the sky at night and

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you see a bright star

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that star in so far as it's constituted

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by

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color is actually inside

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your skull the inner surface of your

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skull is beyond

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the stars as you experience them under

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materialism

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because the experience of the star is

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supposed to be conjured up inside your

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head

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by your brain there is a real star

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beyond your skull but that's not the

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star you see

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it's the thing that somehow modulates

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the star

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you see so that's that's the

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mind twist that you have to do if you

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are to be consistent with materialism in

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your thinking

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all the images your experience are

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inside your actual skull the inner

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surface of your actual skull is beyond

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the room you see right now there is a

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room

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beyond your skull but that's not your

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experience of it

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it's an abstract room describable

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purely by quantities it's something you

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can't even visualize because if you

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visualize you already put qualities in a

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mix

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so that's materialism and its main

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problem is that nobody can provide

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a satisfying account of how quantities

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can

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possibly produce qualities there seems

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to be a fundamental epistemic

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chasm between the two there is nothing

290
00:09:48,630 --> 00:09:46,560
about quantities

291
00:09:49,670 --> 00:09:48,640
that would allow us to deduce at least

292
00:09:51,829 --> 00:09:49,680
in principle

293
00:09:53,670 --> 00:09:51,839
the qualities of experience there is

294
00:09:55,590 --> 00:09:53,680
nothing about mass charge momentum that

295
00:09:56,470 --> 00:09:55,600
would allow us to deduce what it is like

296
00:09:58,230 --> 00:09:56,480
to see red

297
00:09:59,910 --> 00:09:58,240
what it is like to fall in love or to

298
00:10:01,829 --> 00:09:59,920
have a belly ache

299
00:10:03,030 --> 00:10:01,839
there is a correlation between these two

300
00:10:05,269 --> 00:10:03,040
things

301
00:10:07,430 --> 00:10:05,279
but that correlation is not amenable to

302
00:10:09,269 --> 00:10:07,440
to causation it's very difficult to

303
00:10:11,509 --> 00:10:09,279
coherently specify

304
00:10:12,790 --> 00:10:11,519
a chain of causation from quantities to

305
00:10:16,550 --> 00:10:12,800
qualities

306
00:10:19,430 --> 00:10:16,560
now to me this means that we have

307
00:10:21,350 --> 00:10:19,440
reduced materialism to absurdity not

308
00:10:21,910 --> 00:10:21,360
that we have a problem to solve the hard

309
00:10:24,550 --> 00:10:21,920
problem

310
00:10:26,710 --> 00:10:24,560
of consciousness how do you come with

311
00:10:29,110 --> 00:10:26,720
qualities starting from quantities

312
00:10:30,310 --> 00:10:29,120
it's not a problem to be solved it just

313
00:10:33,829 --> 00:10:30,320
illustrates

314
00:10:36,710 --> 00:10:33,839
the contradictions of our assumptions

315
00:10:38,310 --> 00:10:36,720
for me what we call matter is not the

316
00:10:41,190 --> 00:10:38,320
cause of consciousness

317
00:10:41,670 --> 00:10:41,200
it's what certain mental processes look

318
00:10:44,470 --> 00:10:41,680
like

319
00:10:46,949 --> 00:10:44,480
from a certain perspective i think the

320
00:10:50,230 --> 00:10:46,959
error we've made is twofold

321
00:10:53,269 --> 00:10:50,240
the first error we made was to conflate

322
00:10:54,389 --> 00:10:53,279
images with the thing in itself we think

323
00:10:56,949 --> 00:10:54,399
the world we see

324
00:10:57,910 --> 00:10:56,959
is the thing in itself as opposed to the

325
00:11:00,870 --> 00:10:57,920
appearance

326
00:11:02,870 --> 00:11:00,880
the representation the image of the

327
00:11:04,230 --> 00:11:02,880
thing in itself in other words it's what

328
00:11:06,470 --> 00:11:04,240
the thing in itself

329
00:11:07,670 --> 00:11:06,480
looks like when observed from a certain

330
00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:07,680
perspective

331
00:11:10,949 --> 00:11:10,320
matter is appearance it's what the thing

332
00:11:12,710 --> 00:11:10,959
in itself

333
00:11:13,990 --> 00:11:12,720
looks like that's why it sort of

334
00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:14,000
vanishes when you study

335
00:11:20,069 --> 00:11:17,040
quantum physics down to to entanglement

336
00:11:23,110 --> 00:11:20,079
so that was our first error we conflate

337
00:11:24,949 --> 00:11:23,120
we take the images the representations

338
00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:24,959
to be the thing in itself error number

339
00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:26,560
one error number two

340
00:11:29,670 --> 00:11:28,880
very related to the first we try to

341
00:11:32,949 --> 00:11:29,680
replace

342
00:11:35,350 --> 00:11:32,959
reality with a description of reality

343
00:11:36,470 --> 00:11:35,360
we try to pull the territory out of the

344
00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:36,480
map

345
00:11:39,590 --> 00:11:38,560
we start from an experience of the

346
00:11:42,389 --> 00:11:39,600
outside world

347
00:11:43,350 --> 00:11:42,399
a world of colors of sounds melodies

348
00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:43,360
flavors

349
00:11:47,670 --> 00:11:45,040
and then we describe that with

350
00:11:49,190 --> 00:11:47,680
quantities which is fine we're creating

351
00:11:51,750 --> 00:11:49,200
a map of reality

352
00:11:53,190 --> 00:11:51,760
but then we say the quantities the map

353
00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:53,200
is primary

354
00:11:58,710 --> 00:11:56,240
it comes before the world of experience

355
00:12:00,069 --> 00:11:58,720
in other words we replace reality with

356
00:12:02,629 --> 00:12:00,079
our description

357
00:12:04,629 --> 00:12:02,639
of reality and that leads of course to

358
00:12:06,389 --> 00:12:04,639
impossible implications

359
00:12:07,990 --> 00:12:06,399
but then we call it a problem and we

360
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:08,000
promise ourselves it will solve the

361
00:12:11,350 --> 00:12:09,120
problem in the future

362
00:12:12,230 --> 00:12:11,360
i mean it's pathetic it's it's quite

363
00:12:16,310 --> 00:12:12,240
iron

364
00:12:18,790 --> 00:12:16,320
probably will be merciless about us

365
00:12:20,710 --> 00:12:18,800
because our eras are so obvious but they

366
00:12:21,829 --> 00:12:20,720
are so enshrined in the culture that we

367
00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:21,839
can't see them

368
00:12:27,190 --> 00:12:24,399
anymore i think what's happening is that

369
00:12:28,710 --> 00:12:27,200
the thing in itself is mentality

370
00:12:30,230 --> 00:12:28,720
you see that every time you look in the

371
00:12:31,350 --> 00:12:30,240
mirror if you're if you're sad and

372
00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:31,360
you're crying and you look into the

373
00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:33,200
mirror you see tears flowing down your

374
00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:34,160
face

375
00:12:38,790 --> 00:12:36,480
but you you will never think that the

376
00:12:40,710 --> 00:12:38,800
tears are the thing in itself

377
00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:40,720
that the tears are the whole story that

378
00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:42,399
the image in the mirror is the whole

379
00:12:45,269 --> 00:12:43,200
story

380
00:12:46,470 --> 00:12:45,279
you know to say that the tears are not

381
00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:46,480
sadness the

382
00:12:51,750 --> 00:12:50,000
sadness exactly exactly a contorted face

383
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:51,760
with tears in the mirror

384
00:12:57,829 --> 00:12:55,200
is not the sadness it's what the sadness

385
00:12:58,870 --> 00:12:57,839
looks like when observed from a certain

386
00:13:00,949 --> 00:12:58,880
perspective

387
00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:00,959
it's the appearance the image the

388
00:13:05,430 --> 00:13:03,040
representation of the sadness

389
00:13:06,230 --> 00:13:05,440
but behind the image behind the

390
00:13:09,509 --> 00:13:06,240
appearance

391
00:13:12,710 --> 00:13:09,519
there is the thing in itself the sadness

392
00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:12,720
which is a mental event a mental process

393
00:13:16,470 --> 00:13:14,800
let me see if i can make an analogy

394
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:16,480
would it be like if you're watching tv a

395
00:13:18,790 --> 00:13:17,120
movie or

396
00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:18,800
playing a video game and you have a

397
00:13:22,949 --> 00:13:20,480
monitor and the

398
00:13:24,310 --> 00:13:22,959
actual data is the rgb values but then

399
00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:24,320
what we can see

400
00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:26,880
are explosions and faces and it would be

401
00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:27,760
a mistake

402
00:13:31,670 --> 00:13:29,519
to think those secondary inferences

403
00:13:34,150 --> 00:13:31,680
those faces and explosions

404
00:13:35,269 --> 00:13:34,160
are fundamental but the rgb values are

405
00:13:36,790 --> 00:13:35,279
the actual fundamental

406
00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:36,800
that's a fair analogy we have to be

407
00:13:39,509 --> 00:13:38,720
careful because ultimately you're

408
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:39,519
talking about

409
00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:41,680
appearances being the images of other

410
00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:42,800
appearances

411
00:13:46,629 --> 00:13:44,800
because the the computing going on

412
00:13:48,790 --> 00:13:46,639
behind the images you see

413
00:13:50,550 --> 00:13:48,800
is also material so from my perspective

414
00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:50,560
it's also an appearance for me

415
00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:53,040
matter is what mental processes look

416
00:13:56,069 --> 00:13:54,079
like from

417
00:13:57,990 --> 00:13:56,079
across a dissociative boundary in other

418
00:14:01,189 --> 00:13:58,000
words from a certain perspective

419
00:14:01,990 --> 00:14:01,199
and that applies to all matter but as a

420
00:14:04,069 --> 00:14:02,000
metaphor or

421
00:14:05,509 --> 00:14:04,079
as an analogy it's valid to go along

422
00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:05,519
these lines you just proposed

423
00:14:08,949 --> 00:14:07,920
okay across a dissociative boundary why

424
00:14:11,590 --> 00:14:08,959
don't you explain

425
00:14:15,189 --> 00:14:11,600
how dissociative identity disorder gives

426
00:14:17,269 --> 00:14:15,199
rise to some of how you view the world

427
00:14:19,030 --> 00:14:17,279
i i can sort of immediately give an

428
00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:19,040
example from research there was research

429
00:14:22,949 --> 00:14:19,440
done

430
00:14:24,389 --> 00:14:22,959
i think at harvard um several years ago

431
00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:24,399
they studied patients with the

432
00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:26,240
dissociative identity disorder which are

433
00:14:30,150 --> 00:14:28,160
people who seem to have multiple

434
00:14:32,069 --> 00:14:30,160
alter personalities with different

435
00:14:34,470 --> 00:14:32,079
memories different uh

436
00:14:36,310 --> 00:14:34,480
proclivities different tastes uh

437
00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:36,320
different ways of being

438
00:14:40,629 --> 00:14:38,720
but they are in fact just dissociated

439
00:14:41,269 --> 00:14:40,639
aspects of a single mind that person's

440
00:14:42,790 --> 00:14:41,279
mind

441
00:14:45,189 --> 00:14:42,800
now research has shown that when these

442
00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:45,199
people dream

443
00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:47,040
different alter personalities can

444
00:14:49,910 --> 00:14:48,720
experience the same dream from different

445
00:14:52,550 --> 00:14:49,920
perspectives

446
00:14:53,110 --> 00:14:52,560
and they can even see their other alters

447
00:14:55,829 --> 00:14:53,120
as

448
00:14:58,550 --> 00:14:55,839
other avatars within the same dream i

449
00:15:00,230 --> 00:14:58,560
would say that this is a great metaphor

450
00:15:00,710 --> 00:15:00,240
for what might be happening right now

451
00:15:02,629 --> 00:15:00,720
because

452
00:15:04,629 --> 00:15:02,639
the biggest argument against this idea

453
00:15:06,870 --> 00:15:04,639
that mind is fundamental

454
00:15:09,269 --> 00:15:06,880
is that i can't read your thoughts and

455
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:09,279
presumably you can't read mine

456
00:15:13,189 --> 00:15:11,120
so if mind is fundamental how come it

457
00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:13,199
seems to be so neatly bound by

458
00:15:16,949 --> 00:15:15,920
matter if matter is derivative and mind

459
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:16,959
fundamental

460
00:15:21,269 --> 00:15:19,360
well i would suggest that what's

461
00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:21,279
happening there is entirely analogous to

462
00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:22,800
what's happening in the mind of a

463
00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:23,360
patient

464
00:15:28,870 --> 00:15:26,000
with dissociative identity disorder when

465
00:15:30,949 --> 00:15:28,880
mental processes become inferentially

466
00:15:33,030 --> 00:15:30,959
uh separate from each other when they

467
00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:33,040
can't evoke one another when memories

468
00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:34,000
become separate

469
00:15:39,590 --> 00:15:37,680
call it dissociation and that

470
00:15:41,110 --> 00:15:39,600
dissociation is bound by a so-called

471
00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:41,120
dissociative boundary

472
00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:43,040
we have plenty of empirical evidence for

473
00:15:46,069 --> 00:15:44,639
that in psychiatry

474
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:46,079
and we have proof that this is a real

475
00:15:49,670 --> 00:15:47,440
phenomenon since the beginning of

476
00:15:51,749 --> 00:15:49,680
neuroimaging 20 years ago

477
00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:51,759
people with did have particular

478
00:15:55,269 --> 00:15:52,800
identifiable

479
00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:55,279
recognizable patterns of brain activity

480
00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:57,360
that differ from those that do not have

481
00:16:01,749 --> 00:15:58,320
the id

482
00:16:03,749 --> 00:16:01,759
blind by dissociation

483
00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:03,759
if an author who is blind is in control

484
00:16:07,509 --> 00:16:05,040
of the body

485
00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:07,519
mental activity or brain activity in the

486
00:16:10,230 --> 00:16:08,560
visual cortex

487
00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:10,240
has been shown to disappear and that's

488
00:16:12,870 --> 00:16:11,680
not something you can fake

489
00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:12,880
when you're looking around with your

490
00:16:17,269 --> 00:16:15,040
eyes open and there is no activity

491
00:16:18,790 --> 00:16:17,279
in your in your visual cortex and while

492
00:16:20,629 --> 00:16:18,800
when another alter comes

493
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:20,639
and takes control over the body that

494
00:16:24,389 --> 00:16:22,160
mental act or that brain activity

495
00:16:25,910 --> 00:16:24,399
returns and is measurable again

496
00:16:28,310 --> 00:16:25,920
and when you say alter you mean one of

497
00:16:29,670 --> 00:16:28,320
those one of those personalities

498
00:16:31,030 --> 00:16:29,680
traditionally it's called multiple

499
00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:31,040
personality disorder or split

500
00:16:33,749 --> 00:16:32,160
personality disorder you're just

501
00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:33,759
referring to one of those

502
00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:35,360
correct the way that i understand this

503
00:16:38,150 --> 00:16:36,560
is that there's mind at large and then

504
00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:38,160
it fractionates itself into smaller

505
00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:39,600
consciousnesses that each have their own

506
00:16:42,629 --> 00:16:41,360
proclivities and access to memories that

507
00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:42,639
others don't much like

508
00:16:46,230 --> 00:16:44,399
multiple personality disorder or

509
00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:46,240
dissociative identity disorder

510
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:48,160
okay now what i'm wondering is would

511
00:16:52,230 --> 00:16:50,160
this analogy still work if we didn't

512
00:16:54,790 --> 00:16:52,240
refer to that person who has did

513
00:16:56,069 --> 00:16:54,800
as one person so for example in your

514
00:16:57,670 --> 00:16:56,079
home right now

515
00:16:59,430 --> 00:16:57,680
there's you there's your cat maybe

516
00:17:01,269 --> 00:16:59,440
there's some other people

517
00:17:03,189 --> 00:17:01,279
and when you enter and leave i wouldn't

518
00:17:05,110 --> 00:17:03,199
say that that's bernardo's split

519
00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:05,120
personalities i would say he has a home

520
00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:06,640
and these are different people coming in

521
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:08,160
and out so

522
00:17:11,669 --> 00:17:11,039
part of the analogy you make is when we

523
00:17:13,829 --> 00:17:11,679
consider

524
00:17:15,270 --> 00:17:13,839
that person with multiple split multiple

525
00:17:15,909 --> 00:17:15,280
personality disorder as a single

526
00:17:17,669 --> 00:17:15,919
individual

527
00:17:19,429 --> 00:17:17,679
split but what if we don't think of them

528
00:17:21,429 --> 00:17:19,439
as a single individual anymore

529
00:17:23,510 --> 00:17:21,439
we think of them as actually housing

530
00:17:25,029 --> 00:17:23,520
different personalities so then

531
00:17:28,309 --> 00:17:25,039
can you still make that analogy that

532
00:17:30,549 --> 00:17:28,319
it's all one mind at large

533
00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:30,559
look the experience of separation

534
00:17:32,789 --> 00:17:32,480
definitely exists i'm having it right

535
00:17:35,669 --> 00:17:32,799
now

536
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:35,679
what's happening in the galaxy of

537
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:36,480
andromeda

538
00:17:40,630 --> 00:17:38,799
and i can't influence the thoughts of

539
00:17:42,070 --> 00:17:40,640
the presidents of the world's nations if

540
00:17:44,789 --> 00:17:42,080
i could the world would be

541
00:17:45,510 --> 00:17:44,799
looking very different right now so it

542
00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:45,520
exists

543
00:17:49,510 --> 00:17:47,520
as an experience in the same way that

544
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:49,520
the different altars of a person with

545
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:50,400
the id

546
00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:52,559
experience the same dream from a

547
00:17:56,950 --> 00:17:53,919
different perspective

548
00:18:00,630 --> 00:17:56,960
so the experience of separation

549
00:18:03,909 --> 00:18:00,640
exists it would be silly to deny that

550
00:18:07,350 --> 00:18:03,919
because it's a basic datum of existence

551
00:18:08,789 --> 00:18:07,360
what i would say is that fundamentally

552
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:08,799
there is no separation

553
00:18:12,549 --> 00:18:11,120
that experience of separation is a form

554
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:12,559
of illusion

555
00:18:19,510 --> 00:18:15,760
fundamentally it's all happening in one

556
00:18:21,669 --> 00:18:19,520
natural mind uh a mind that spans

557
00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:21,679
uh across the universe like uh the

558
00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:23,760
theoretical quantum fields in quantum

559
00:18:27,270 --> 00:18:24,640
theory

560
00:18:29,350 --> 00:18:27,280
um the same boundlessness is implied

561
00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:29,360
there

562
00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:32,160
but you see if we have a theory of

563
00:18:36,549 --> 00:18:33,520
reality that

564
00:18:39,270 --> 00:18:36,559
does justice to reason and evidence

565
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:39,280
i think that theory would unavoidably

566
00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:41,440
point to this mental oneness at the most

567
00:18:44,549 --> 00:18:42,080
fundamental

568
00:18:46,630 --> 00:18:44,559
layer of reality it wouldn't invalidate

569
00:18:48,870 --> 00:18:46,640
our ordinary experience because

570
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:48,880
they exist as such they exist as

571
00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:49,840
experiences

572
00:18:53,909 --> 00:18:52,880
but they could inform our judgment they

573
00:18:56,230 --> 00:18:53,919
could inform

574
00:18:58,230 --> 00:18:56,240
even our ethical systems in a much

575
00:18:59,909 --> 00:18:58,240
healthier way than what's going on right

576
00:19:02,710 --> 00:18:59,919
now because if you know

577
00:19:03,990 --> 00:19:02,720
at least from thinking and evidence from

578
00:19:07,029 --> 00:19:04,000
reason and evidence

579
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:07,039
that most likely we are all alters of

580
00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:08,160
one mind

581
00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:10,400
i think we would look at our perceived

582
00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:12,400
enemies differently we would look at

583
00:19:15,750 --> 00:19:14,640
underprivileged people in the world

584
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:15,760
differently we would

585
00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:18,960
regard animal life differently

586
00:19:23,350 --> 00:19:20,799
um and i think that would be a good step

587
00:19:25,270 --> 00:19:23,360
forward what's special about life that

588
00:19:27,029 --> 00:19:25,280
makes it such that it's its own little

589
00:19:28,549 --> 00:19:27,039
dissociative identity as opposed to

590
00:19:30,789 --> 00:19:28,559
let's say a computer

591
00:19:33,110 --> 00:19:30,799
and then wait here's sorry to add to

592
00:19:34,390 --> 00:19:33,120
that you were suggesting before that

593
00:19:35,909 --> 00:19:34,400
people get well this is in the

594
00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:35,919
literature people get dissociative

595
00:19:39,350 --> 00:19:37,120
identity from trauma

596
00:19:41,270 --> 00:19:39,360
so what i was wondering is okay so let's

597
00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:41,280
say you give birth

598
00:19:46,470 --> 00:19:44,400
what you've done is you've created some

599
00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:46,480
a causal chain within those notes

600
00:19:49,669 --> 00:19:48,080
that you had in a powerpoint slide

601
00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:49,679
before people can't see that right now

602
00:19:51,909 --> 00:19:50,080
but

603
00:19:53,669 --> 00:19:51,919
maybe i can overlay that so every time

604
00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:53,679
we give birth or every time an ant

605
00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:56,400
gives birth is the universe being

606
00:19:58,710 --> 00:19:57,200
traumatized

607
00:19:59,990 --> 00:19:58,720
in some way and it's saying i can't

608
00:20:01,430 --> 00:20:00,000
handle this let me create a new

609
00:20:03,110 --> 00:20:01,440
personality

610
00:20:06,310 --> 00:20:03,120
i don't think so i think that's a that's

611
00:20:10,149 --> 00:20:06,320
an insta instance of taking the metaphor

612
00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:10,159
too far what what makes life

613
00:20:13,270 --> 00:20:12,480
special for us is that we are alive but

614
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:13,280
other than that

615
00:20:17,750 --> 00:20:15,360
life is just one natural phenomenon

616
00:20:19,830 --> 00:20:17,760
amongst gazillions of natural phenomena

617
00:20:20,789 --> 00:20:19,840
i would say a quasar is a very very

618
00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:20,799
special

619
00:20:25,669 --> 00:20:23,200
natural phenomenon a very impressive one

620
00:20:28,950 --> 00:20:25,679
so is a black hole

621
00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:28,960
i think what we call life biology is

622
00:20:33,750 --> 00:20:31,760
what dissociation looks like when

623
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:33,760
observed from a cross it's dissociative

624
00:20:36,549 --> 00:20:34,400
boundary

625
00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:36,559
it it it's the image of the phenomenon

626
00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:37,840
to make an analogy

627
00:20:42,230 --> 00:20:40,240
there was a neuroimaging study of

628
00:20:43,830 --> 00:20:42,240
dissociative identity disorder that was

629
00:20:44,310 --> 00:20:43,840
carried out in the netherlands where i

630
00:20:47,270 --> 00:20:44,320
am

631
00:20:48,549 --> 00:20:47,280
in 2014 by yolanda schlumpf and and and

632
00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:48,559
collaborators

633
00:20:52,630 --> 00:20:50,960
and they have shown that if you image

634
00:20:53,669 --> 00:20:52,640
the activity in the brain of a person

635
00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:53,679
with dissociative

636
00:20:57,510 --> 00:20:56,640
identity disorder those dissociative

637
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:57,520
processes

638
00:21:01,430 --> 00:20:59,360
have a certain image they look like

639
00:21:02,470 --> 00:21:01,440
something identifiable you can point at

640
00:21:04,789 --> 00:21:02,480
them and say hey

641
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:04,799
this is the pattern of brain activity we

642
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:07,440
see when the person is dissociated

643
00:21:10,789 --> 00:21:09,360
so there is something dissociative

644
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:10,799
processes look like

645
00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:13,600
in the brain of a person with the id i

646
00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:14,159
would go

647
00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:16,720
as far with this analogy as to say well

648
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:18,720
when the universe undergoes dissociative

649
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:20,400
identity disorder something

650
00:21:23,990 --> 00:21:22,400
metaphorically related to dissociative

651
00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:24,000
identity disorder

652
00:21:27,430 --> 00:21:26,320
those natural dissociative processes in

653
00:21:30,390 --> 00:21:27,440
the universe

654
00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:30,400
also look like something there must be

655
00:21:33,669 --> 00:21:32,480
something it looks like every phenomenon

656
00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:33,679
in nature looks like

657
00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:35,520
something when observed from a given

658
00:21:39,909 --> 00:21:36,960
perspective so

659
00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:39,919
so must dissociation be it must look

660
00:21:41,990 --> 00:21:40,240
like

661
00:21:43,669 --> 00:21:42,000
something and i would offer to you that

662
00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:43,679
what it looks like is what we call

663
00:21:47,110 --> 00:21:44,640
biology

664
00:21:48,549 --> 00:21:47,120
that life is the image of that

665
00:21:52,470 --> 00:21:48,559
dissociation

666
00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:52,480
now how the first living organism has

667
00:21:56,870 --> 00:21:53,120
arisen

668
00:21:59,190 --> 00:21:56,880
how the mind of nature

669
00:22:00,149 --> 00:21:59,200
dissociated for the first time i don't

670
00:22:03,029 --> 00:22:00,159
know

671
00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:03,039
could could we drag the idea of trauma

672
00:22:12,070 --> 00:22:03,760
to

673
00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:12,080
not necessarily the case for

674
00:22:15,669 --> 00:22:13,600
for the theory to hold i would just

675
00:22:16,789 --> 00:22:15,679
entertain these ideas as an interesting

676
00:22:20,070 --> 00:22:16,799
extra

677
00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:20,080
um but now beyond that point

678
00:22:24,470 --> 00:22:22,960
beyond those initial dissociations maybe

679
00:22:25,909 --> 00:22:24,480
one has happened and then died off and

680
00:22:26,549 --> 00:22:25,919
then it happened again in a different

681
00:22:29,350 --> 00:22:26,559
way

682
00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:29,360
eventually didn't die off from that

683
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:30,400
point on

684
00:22:33,669 --> 00:22:32,880
we can apply the theory of natural

685
00:22:36,789 --> 00:22:33,679
evolution

686
00:22:37,669 --> 00:22:36,799
verbatim to this i i'm not offering a

687
00:22:39,909 --> 00:22:37,679
new science

688
00:22:42,230 --> 00:22:39,919
i'm offering a new interpretation of

689
00:22:44,230 --> 00:22:42,240
science from a metaphysical perspective

690
00:22:47,029 --> 00:22:44,240
evolution still holds what is

691
00:22:50,310 --> 00:22:47,039
maintaining the dissociative processes

692
00:22:52,230 --> 00:22:50,320
is that for for some reason at some

693
00:22:56,470 --> 00:22:52,240
point one dissociative process

694
00:22:58,870 --> 00:22:56,480
process arose that could create another

695
00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:58,880
that could maintain that dissociation

696
00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:00,240
and that it could

697
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:03,360
do that is sufficient to account for why

698
00:23:07,750 --> 00:23:06,000
it did for why it continues to do

699
00:23:09,270 --> 00:23:07,760
because that's what evolution by natural

700
00:23:11,750 --> 00:23:09,280
selection tells us

701
00:23:12,710 --> 00:23:11,760
if an organism can reproduce more

702
00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:12,720
effectively

703
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:15,600
it will pass on the ability to reproduce

704
00:23:20,789 --> 00:23:17,039
more effectively to its

705
00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:20,799
uh to its descendants and merely because

706
00:23:23,909 --> 00:23:22,080
it's more effective at that

707
00:23:26,549 --> 00:23:23,919
it will predominate and it will continue

708
00:23:28,549 --> 00:23:26,559
to exist and so the association

709
00:23:30,149 --> 00:23:28,559
has come to seven and a half billion

710
00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:30,159
human beings

711
00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:32,320
plus countless gazillions of other

712
00:23:37,350 --> 00:23:34,080
living beings on this earth

713
00:23:38,789 --> 00:23:37,360
because it's the mechanism of evolution

714
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:38,799
by natural selection

715
00:23:43,029 --> 00:23:41,360
the ones that could do it were selected

716
00:23:44,310 --> 00:23:43,039
and we keep on doing it we keep on

717
00:23:47,269 --> 00:23:44,320
perpetuating

718
00:23:48,789 --> 00:23:47,279
the dissociation because of evolution by

719
00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:48,799
natural selection

720
00:23:53,830 --> 00:23:51,840
anything else you add to that goes far

721
00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:53,840
into speculative territory i think it's

722
00:23:58,470 --> 00:23:56,400
valid speculation but for the theory

723
00:24:01,029 --> 00:23:58,480
that i'm proposing to host

724
00:24:01,669 --> 00:24:01,039
all you need is evolution by natural

725
00:24:03,269 --> 00:24:01,679
selection

726
00:24:05,029 --> 00:24:03,279
you don't need any extra bells and

727
00:24:06,630 --> 00:24:05,039
whistles

728
00:24:08,470 --> 00:24:06,640
you also need that consciousness is

729
00:24:10,870 --> 00:24:08,480
primitive correct

730
00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:10,880
i would say that consciousness is the

731
00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:12,559
primitive

732
00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:14,799
not personal consciousness not your

733
00:24:18,230 --> 00:24:16,000
consciousness or my

734
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:18,240
consciousness but the consciousness of

735
00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:19,200
nature

736
00:24:22,710 --> 00:24:21,120
i would say that's the primitive and

737
00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:22,720
what matter is

738
00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:25,760
is what mental processes in that natural

739
00:24:28,070 --> 00:24:26,480
mind

740
00:24:29,909 --> 00:24:28,080
look like from across a dissociative

741
00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:29,919
boundary now i am dissociated

742
00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:32,320
what is my dissociative boundary well it

743
00:24:36,630 --> 00:24:34,080
looks like my eyes my skin

744
00:24:38,789 --> 00:24:36,640
my ears my tongue the surface of my body

745
00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:38,799
and my sense organs

746
00:24:45,029 --> 00:24:41,840
when my dissociative alter is

747
00:24:46,630 --> 00:24:45,039
impinged upon by mental activity that

748
00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:46,640
surrounds me

749
00:24:53,029 --> 00:24:50,000
i register that in the form that we call

750
00:24:54,789 --> 00:24:53,039
matter because again evolution was such

751
00:24:56,630 --> 00:24:54,799
that our sense organs evolved

752
00:24:59,190 --> 00:24:56,640
to perceive the states of the world

753
00:25:00,870 --> 00:24:59,200
around us in an encoded way this has

754
00:25:02,870 --> 00:25:00,880
been proven mathematically by the way we

755
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:02,880
need to encode our sense perceptions in

756
00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:03,520
order to

757
00:25:07,350 --> 00:25:05,760
resist the second law of thermodynamics

758
00:25:08,549 --> 00:25:07,360
in order not to dissolve into an

759
00:25:11,190 --> 00:25:08,559
entropic soup

760
00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:11,200
so we encode information about the

761
00:25:14,630 --> 00:25:13,120
outside world in the form of a sort of a

762
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:14,640
dashboard

763
00:25:20,149 --> 00:25:18,640
we see the sounds we hear

764
00:25:21,909 --> 00:25:20,159
what you mean when you say that if we

765
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:21,919
were to mirror reality exactly as it is

766
00:25:23,909 --> 00:25:23,440
that we would dissolve in an entropic

767
00:25:26,070 --> 00:25:23,919
soup

768
00:25:27,430 --> 00:25:26,080
is that carl fristen that's correct are

769
00:25:28,470 --> 00:25:27,440
you essentially saying because i haven't

770
00:25:28,870 --> 00:25:28,480
read this work are you essentially

771
00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:28,880
saying

772
00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:30,320
in the second law of thermodynamics if

773
00:25:33,269 --> 00:25:31,840
you have two isolated bodies you bring

774
00:25:36,149 --> 00:25:33,279
them together then they're gonna

775
00:25:37,830 --> 00:25:36,159
you don't need to go that far the idea

776
00:25:39,430 --> 00:25:37,840
is mathematically extraordinarily

777
00:25:40,710 --> 00:25:39,440
complex it took me a long time to

778
00:25:43,190 --> 00:25:40,720
persuade myself

779
00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:43,200
that they were onto something but the

780
00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:45,200
implication for you to understand what

781
00:25:50,549 --> 00:25:47,279
the math is saying is very simple

782
00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:50,559
look there are practically infinite

783
00:25:54,549 --> 00:25:51,120
states

784
00:25:56,710 --> 00:25:54,559
in the world out there right infinite

785
00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:56,720
bits of information in the world out

786
00:26:00,710 --> 00:25:57,600
there

787
00:26:02,149 --> 00:26:00,720
if our perception were to mirror that

788
00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:02,159
variety of states

789
00:26:05,590 --> 00:26:04,960
in the world out there there would be

790
00:26:08,310 --> 00:26:05,600
too much

791
00:26:09,029 --> 00:26:08,320
dispersion within our body too many

792
00:26:11,269 --> 00:26:09,039
states

793
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:11,279
and we would lose our dynamical and

794
00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:12,720
structural integrity

795
00:26:17,110 --> 00:26:15,760
in other words we would evolve into a

796
00:26:19,110 --> 00:26:17,120
boiling soup

797
00:26:21,750 --> 00:26:19,120
because it's too much information to

798
00:26:22,390 --> 00:26:21,760
absorb too many dispersed states to

799
00:26:24,950 --> 00:26:22,400
mirror

800
00:26:26,390 --> 00:26:24,960
within the boundaries of our

801
00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:26,400
dissociative process

802
00:26:29,590 --> 00:26:28,720
which uh fristen calls the markov

803
00:26:31,669 --> 00:26:29,600
blanket

804
00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:31,679
he models our dissociative boundary

805
00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:33,360
according to the mathematical model that

806
00:26:36,149 --> 00:26:33,840
we call

807
00:26:38,390 --> 00:26:36,159
a markov blanket which is mathematically

808
00:26:40,710 --> 00:26:38,400
very sensible to do

809
00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:40,720
so we can't mirror the states of the

810
00:26:43,510 --> 00:26:41,600
world outside

811
00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:43,520
otherwise we would dissolve into a

812
00:26:47,990 --> 00:26:46,000
boiling soup so what can we do to gather

813
00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:48,000
as much information as possible

814
00:26:50,870 --> 00:26:49,520
about the world outside because it's

815
00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:50,880
important to do that if we want to

816
00:26:53,750 --> 00:26:52,320
survive we need we need to know what's

817
00:26:55,990 --> 00:26:53,760
going on around us

818
00:26:56,950 --> 00:26:56,000
the way to do that is to encode those

819
00:27:00,070 --> 00:26:56,960
states in an

820
00:27:00,390 --> 00:27:00,080
inferential manner you don't mirror them

821
00:27:03,350 --> 00:27:00,400
all

822
00:27:03,990 --> 00:27:03,360
inside you you capture what is relevant

823
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:04,000
about them

824
00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:07,840
in a kind of internal dashboard of dials

825
00:27:11,909 --> 00:27:10,720
what those diodes show is not the world

826
00:27:14,070 --> 00:27:11,919
as it is in itself

827
00:27:15,750 --> 00:27:14,080
it's not the thing in itself what they

828
00:27:17,350 --> 00:27:15,760
provide is a representation of that

829
00:27:20,389 --> 00:27:17,360
world think of it as a

830
00:27:22,789 --> 00:27:20,399
a pilot an airplane pilot in bad weather

831
00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:22,799
with clouds at night he can't see the

832
00:27:27,269 --> 00:27:24,000
world but he trusts

833
00:27:29,029 --> 00:27:27,279
his instrument panel so

834
00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:29,039
he needs the instrument panel in order

835
00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:30,480
to survive the trip

836
00:27:35,190 --> 00:27:32,880
but the instrument panel is not the

837
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:35,200
world and that's the mistake we make

838
00:27:39,510 --> 00:27:37,200
our instrument panel has a name we call

839
00:27:40,149 --> 00:27:39,520
it matter the stuff we perceive around

840
00:27:49,590 --> 00:27:40,159
us

841
00:27:51,669 --> 00:27:49,600
is food

842
00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:51,679
in front of you we should take it

843
00:27:55,269 --> 00:27:52,720
seriously

844
00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:55,279
but we have to keep in mind that that

845
00:27:59,590 --> 00:27:56,480
instrument panel

846
00:28:00,789 --> 00:27:59,600
is not the world the pilot's instrument

847
00:28:02,789 --> 00:28:00,799
panel is not

848
00:28:04,389 --> 00:28:02,799
the storm outside it's not the clouds

849
00:28:05,269 --> 00:28:04,399
it's not the sky it's not the land

850
00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:05,279
underneath

851
00:28:10,310 --> 00:28:08,640
it is a representation of it and we make

852
00:28:12,230 --> 00:28:10,320
this mistake we take the instrument

853
00:28:14,950 --> 00:28:12,240
panel to be the thing in itself

854
00:28:17,269 --> 00:28:14,960
and there it goes terribly wrong because

855
00:28:18,230 --> 00:28:17,279
it leads to impossible contradictory

856
00:28:19,750 --> 00:28:18,240
implications

857
00:28:21,669 --> 00:28:19,760
which we can't solve because they're

858
00:28:24,710 --> 00:28:21,679
just the product of

859
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:24,720
wrong thinking illogical thinking and we

860
00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:26,640
label them problems and we promise that

861
00:28:29,830 --> 00:28:28,080
we'll solve them at one point

862
00:28:31,430 --> 00:28:29,840
and it has other even more pernicious

863
00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:31,440
implications like the belief that your

864
00:28:35,190 --> 00:28:32,720
consciousness will end

865
00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:35,200
when you die well its state will

866
00:28:38,549 --> 00:28:36,240
certainly change

867
00:28:40,549 --> 00:28:38,559
it will not be dissociated anymore but

868
00:28:41,510 --> 00:28:40,559
we have absolutely no reason to think it

869
00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:41,520
will end

870
00:28:45,669 --> 00:28:43,440
just because the image of a certain

871
00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:45,679
process in consciousness has changed

872
00:28:48,549 --> 00:28:46,960
you don't have any more reason to

873
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:48,559
believe your consciousness will cease to

874
00:28:58,470 --> 00:28:49,120
be

875
00:29:00,070 --> 00:28:58,480
but you are not going to mourn it when

876
00:29:02,070 --> 00:29:00,080
you wake up

877
00:29:04,389 --> 00:29:02,080
your consciousness your conscious state

878
00:29:05,190 --> 00:29:04,399
will change but you will not cease to be

879
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:05,200
as a

880
00:29:12,870 --> 00:29:10,720
and that's the pernicious part of this

881
00:29:16,230 --> 00:29:12,880
illogical road we've gone

882
00:29:18,149 --> 00:29:16,240
down for for a couple of centuries now

883
00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:18,159
bernardo what does it mean to explain a

884
00:29:23,029 --> 00:29:20,080
phenomenon

885
00:29:25,510 --> 00:29:23,039
usually even in science and philosophy

886
00:29:28,149 --> 00:29:25,520
an explanation entails a reduction

887
00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:28,159
so to explain something entails reducing

888
00:29:31,350 --> 00:29:29,840
it to something else

889
00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:31,360
can you have an explanation without

890
00:29:38,389 --> 00:29:36,710
if you redefine the sense of the word

891
00:29:40,710 --> 00:29:38,399
explanation

892
00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:40,720
perhaps but i think i personally

893
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:41,600
wouldn't i

894
00:29:45,029 --> 00:29:44,240
i i like the association between

895
00:29:47,909 --> 00:29:45,039
explaining

896
00:29:49,909 --> 00:29:47,919
and reducing and i think most things in

897
00:29:52,310 --> 00:29:49,919
the world around us and in ourselves can

898
00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:52,320
be explained they can be reduced

899
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:54,320
the problem is that you can't keep on

900
00:29:57,190 --> 00:29:56,240
explaining one thing in terms of another

901
00:29:59,350 --> 00:29:57,200
forever

902
00:30:00,389 --> 00:29:59,360
otherwise you will eventually go into a

903
00:30:02,549 --> 00:30:00,399
circular loop

904
00:30:04,149 --> 00:30:02,559
and you explain exactly nothing because

905
00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:04,159
you know it's it's just

906
00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:07,600
a loop it's just begging the question as

907
00:30:11,110 --> 00:30:08,799
philosophers say

908
00:30:11,909 --> 00:30:11,120
so at some point you you hit a rock

909
00:30:13,750 --> 00:30:11,919
bottom

910
00:30:15,909 --> 00:30:13,760
and there has to be something that is a

911
00:30:19,029 --> 00:30:15,919
given something in nature

912
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:19,039
must not be explainable that

913
00:30:23,110 --> 00:30:21,840
must be the case so that you can explain

914
00:30:25,350 --> 00:30:23,120
everything else

915
00:30:26,310 --> 00:30:25,360
one thing at least one thing cannot be

916
00:30:27,590 --> 00:30:26,320
reduceable and i think it's

917
00:30:30,310 --> 00:30:27,600
consciousness

918
00:30:31,269 --> 00:30:30,320
is it possible to derive a coherent

919
00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:31,279
theory from

920
00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:34,080
starting with the premise of nothing of

921
00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:35,760
zero that somehow becomes

922
00:30:40,950 --> 00:30:39,120
more than zero i'm sure

923
00:30:42,310 --> 00:30:40,960
you've gotten emails from people i'm

924
00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:42,320
sure you get plenty of emails

925
00:30:45,350 --> 00:30:44,080
of people's theories of consciousness

926
00:30:46,950 --> 00:30:45,360
and theories of everything

927
00:30:48,389 --> 00:30:46,960
and i'm sure you've come across some

928
00:30:49,909 --> 00:30:48,399
that say zero's the same as infinity

929
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:49,919
from nothing comes everything from

930
00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:51,840
everything goes back to nothing

931
00:30:55,510 --> 00:30:54,960
so what do you make of those i think

932
00:30:59,830 --> 00:30:55,520
under

933
00:31:02,870 --> 00:30:59,840
this is possible

934
00:31:05,350 --> 00:31:02,880
but i don't think it's possible with a

935
00:31:06,870 --> 00:31:05,360
thorough fundamental understanding of

936
00:31:09,190 --> 00:31:06,880
nothingness i think what people who

937
00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:09,200
think everything came from nothing are

938
00:31:16,789 --> 00:31:13,440
thinking about is that there is nothing

939
00:31:19,990 --> 00:31:16,799
as there is nothing manifest

940
00:31:21,269 --> 00:31:20,000
but there is potentiality so you can

941
00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:21,279
define the word

942
00:31:24,789 --> 00:31:23,120
nothing in such a way that it's only

943
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:24,799
applicable to manifestation

944
00:31:28,950 --> 00:31:26,640
and not to potentiality and then you can

945
00:31:30,710 --> 00:31:28,960
say well everything came from nothing

946
00:31:32,070 --> 00:31:30,720
because nothing is just potential and

947
00:31:35,669 --> 00:31:32,080
potential is nothing

948
00:31:36,470 --> 00:31:35,679
but under a more thorough definition of

949
00:31:39,029 --> 00:31:36,480
nothingness

950
00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:39,039
i think most people would agree that the

951
00:31:43,029 --> 00:31:40,960
existence of a potential

952
00:31:43,990 --> 00:31:43,039
already means that it's not nothing

953
00:31:46,549 --> 00:31:44,000
anymore

954
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:46,559
but the potential is something or at

955
00:31:51,190 --> 00:31:48,480
least it's something to be

956
00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:51,200
it's the potential for something if you

957
00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:51,840
eliminate

958
00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:54,080
even the potentials then i think you are

959
00:31:57,990 --> 00:31:54,880
squarely

960
00:31:58,630 --> 00:31:58,000
into incoherence land because there

961
00:32:01,110 --> 00:31:58,640
obviously

962
00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:01,120
is something we're having an experience

963
00:32:05,029 --> 00:32:02,080
so there is

964
00:32:06,789 --> 00:32:05,039
something manifest it is possible that

965
00:32:08,710 --> 00:32:06,799
this something that is manifest

966
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:08,720
comes out of pure potential and that at

967
00:32:12,549 --> 00:32:10,080
some point in

968
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:12,559
in natural history there was only the

969
00:32:14,950 --> 00:32:13,360
potential

970
00:32:17,430 --> 00:32:14,960
that that's possible and coherent but

971
00:32:19,190 --> 00:32:17,440
you have to stick to the potential

972
00:32:20,789 --> 00:32:19,200
what does it mean to exist i've heard

973
00:32:22,230 --> 00:32:20,799
you say that abstractions don't exist

974
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:22,240
that numbers don't exist

975
00:32:25,509 --> 00:32:24,240
that they're simply stories now here's

976
00:32:27,350 --> 00:32:25,519
the way that i think about that

977
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:27,360
i can understand that let's say harry

978
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:29,279
potter to me the story exists the

979
00:32:33,269 --> 00:32:30,480
characters don't

980
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:33,279
but the story exists so first of all

981
00:32:35,350 --> 00:32:34,480
what does it mean to exist and what do

982
00:32:38,149 --> 00:32:35,360
you mean when you say that the

983
00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:38,159
abstractions themselves don't exist

984
00:32:42,549 --> 00:32:40,240
in different situations when i'm talking

985
00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:42,559
to different audiences i may articulate

986
00:32:46,549 --> 00:32:44,720
my my words in a different way so to

987
00:32:48,070 --> 00:32:46,559
appeal to the particular assumptions of

988
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:48,080
that audience

989
00:32:52,789 --> 00:32:50,640
when i say that abstractions don't exist

990
00:32:55,509 --> 00:32:52,799
i'm appealing to the correspondence

991
00:32:56,149 --> 00:32:55,519
theory of truth which says that mental

992
00:32:58,710 --> 00:32:56,159
states

993
00:33:00,389 --> 00:32:58,720
are only true if they correspond to no

994
00:33:02,870 --> 00:33:00,399
mental objective states

995
00:33:03,590 --> 00:33:02,880
out there in the world beyond your own

996
00:33:05,590 --> 00:33:03,600
mind

997
00:33:07,029 --> 00:33:05,600
so based on that theory i would say

998
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:07,039
abstractions don't

999
00:33:13,590 --> 00:33:10,080
exist as far as we can know because they

1000
00:33:16,070 --> 00:33:13,600
only exist as our own mental states

1001
00:33:17,990 --> 00:33:16,080
they do not have necessarily a

1002
00:33:20,389 --> 00:33:18,000
corresponding state beyond

1003
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:20,399
our own mentation or beyond mentation in

1004
00:33:23,269 --> 00:33:21,120
general

1005
00:33:25,110 --> 00:33:23,279
so in that sense abstractions are just

1006
00:33:27,269 --> 00:33:25,120
that the abstract are abstractions

1007
00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:27,279
they do not correspond to an objective

1008
00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:29,200
state of affairs outside mind

1009
00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:31,919
now of course the abstractions exist as

1010
00:33:35,830 --> 00:33:32,320
such

1011
00:33:38,230 --> 00:33:35,840
they exist at abstractions but

1012
00:33:39,110 --> 00:33:38,240
most people today they take the

1013
00:33:40,549 --> 00:33:39,120
abstractions

1014
00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:40,559
further they will say well the

1015
00:33:43,669 --> 00:33:42,399
abstractions exist not only as

1016
00:33:46,389 --> 00:33:43,679
abstractions

1017
00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:46,399
but they correspond to something that is

1018
00:33:49,509 --> 00:33:46,720
not

1019
00:33:50,389 --> 00:33:49,519
itself an abstraction and that's where i

1020
00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:50,399
would say

1021
00:33:54,789 --> 00:33:53,710
what reason do you have to believe that

1022
00:33:58,710 --> 00:33:54,799
[Music]

1023
00:33:59,590 --> 00:33:58,720
theorizing in science is useful as a

1024
00:34:03,750 --> 00:33:59,600
predictive

1025
00:34:05,669 --> 00:34:03,760
tool the the elements of our theories

1026
00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:05,679
like elemental subatomic particles we

1027
00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:07,200
have never seen a higgs boson for

1028
00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:07,840
instance

1029
00:34:11,909 --> 00:34:09,679
we haven't even measured one what we

1030
00:34:14,149 --> 00:34:11,919
measure are the results of the decay of

1031
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:14,159
the higgs boson and higgs boson exists

1032
00:34:17,270 --> 00:34:15,520
for too short a time

1033
00:34:19,349 --> 00:34:17,280
to interact with any measurement

1034
00:34:21,510 --> 00:34:19,359
instrument but we talk about the higgs

1035
00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:21,520
boson as if it existed why

1036
00:34:27,510 --> 00:34:24,720
because nature functions as though

1037
00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:27,520
it existed and that's enough for you to

1038
00:34:31,270 --> 00:34:29,040
predict nature's behavior

1039
00:34:32,230 --> 00:34:31,280
and develop technology you don't need

1040
00:34:35,270 --> 00:34:32,240
any more

1041
00:34:36,069 --> 00:34:35,280
than convenient fictions that prove to

1042
00:34:38,069 --> 00:34:36,079
be predictive

1043
00:34:39,750 --> 00:34:38,079
in practice in order to develop

1044
00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:39,760
technology and prove the power of

1045
00:34:44,149 --> 00:34:42,159
science to come up with explanations

1046
00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:44,159
uh forward explanations and retroactive

1047
00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:45,599
explanations but we cannot

1048
00:34:51,430 --> 00:34:49,280
lose from sight that these are stories

1049
00:34:53,430 --> 00:34:51,440
that happen to have predictive power

1050
00:34:54,069 --> 00:34:53,440
nature behaves as though the higgs

1051
00:34:58,310 --> 00:34:54,079
existed

1052
00:34:59,349 --> 00:34:58,320
are pure abstractions pure theoretical

1053
00:35:01,589 --> 00:34:59,359
abstractions

1054
00:35:03,190 --> 00:35:01,599
but when we take the philosophical this

1055
00:35:05,829 --> 00:35:03,200
is no longer scientific step when we

1056
00:35:09,109 --> 00:35:05,839
take the philosophical step to say

1057
00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:09,119
this theory is literally what nature

1058
00:35:13,270 --> 00:35:11,440
is and when you talk about being about

1059
00:35:14,069 --> 00:35:13,280
business now you are in metaphysics

1060
00:35:15,990 --> 00:35:14,079
territory

1061
00:35:17,750 --> 00:35:16,000
science makes no statements about what

1062
00:35:20,550 --> 00:35:17,760
things are science only

1063
00:35:22,069 --> 00:35:20,560
says how things behave not what they are

1064
00:35:22,870 --> 00:35:22,079
when you take the theory and you say

1065
00:35:25,990 --> 00:35:22,880
nature

1066
00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:26,000
is that is a higgs boson is a quantum

1067
00:35:28,550 --> 00:35:26,640
field

1068
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:28,560
now you are taking a philosophical step

1069
00:35:32,710 --> 00:35:29,760
which may but

1070
00:35:33,750 --> 00:35:32,720
may not be correct and which science in

1071
00:35:36,150 --> 00:35:33,760
any case

1072
00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:36,160
cannot either prove or disprove because

1073
00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:38,560
it only makes statements about behavior

1074
00:35:42,550 --> 00:35:41,440
so i caution against this runaway show

1075
00:35:44,790 --> 00:35:42,560
of abstraction

1076
00:35:46,550 --> 00:35:44,800
that we are engaged in today we take

1077
00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:46,560
these useful fictions of scientific

1078
00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:47,920
theory which we should take very

1079
00:35:52,870 --> 00:35:49,920
seriously because they are very useful

1080
00:35:53,829 --> 00:35:52,880
we take them to be literally what is and

1081
00:35:56,470 --> 00:35:53,839
there we can go

1082
00:35:58,710 --> 00:35:56,480
terribly and drastically wrong what

1083
00:35:59,910 --> 00:35:58,720
theory of truth do you subscribe to

1084
00:36:02,150 --> 00:35:59,920
you said that when you're speaking to

1085
00:36:03,430 --> 00:36:02,160
some audiences you conform to what their

1086
00:36:05,589 --> 00:36:03,440
notion of truth is and i

1087
00:36:06,870 --> 00:36:05,599
assume that what you're equating is what

1088
00:36:08,390 --> 00:36:06,880
exists is that which is true

1089
00:36:09,750 --> 00:36:08,400
at least for this conversation and you

1090
00:36:11,430 --> 00:36:09,760
reference the correspondence theory of

1091
00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:11,440
truth do you hold the correspondence

1092
00:36:14,470 --> 00:36:12,000
theory of truth

1093
00:36:15,750 --> 00:36:14,480
for your own personal view of truth no

1094
00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:15,760
uh i think

1095
00:36:21,750 --> 00:36:18,960
oh what do i hold in to

1096
00:36:22,950 --> 00:36:21,760
in my own mind i would say all that

1097
00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:22,960
exists is mind

1098
00:36:27,990 --> 00:36:26,480
and everything else are the results of

1099
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:28,000
mind deceiving itself

1100
00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:29,760
is that not correspondence that what

1101
00:36:32,790 --> 00:36:31,440
exists is mind like our concept of mind

1102
00:36:33,670 --> 00:36:32,800
corresponds to something called mind

1103
00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:33,680
correspondence

1104
00:36:38,710 --> 00:36:36,000
would be when you make a link between a

1105
00:36:40,790 --> 00:36:38,720
mental state and a non-mental state

1106
00:36:42,069 --> 00:36:40,800
so that's what the correspondence theory

1107
00:36:43,750 --> 00:36:42,079
of truth would say

1108
00:36:45,190 --> 00:36:43,760
and since i don't acknowledge the

1109
00:36:47,190 --> 00:36:45,200
existence of any

1110
00:36:49,030 --> 00:36:47,200
non-mental state i think all states are

1111
00:36:51,030 --> 00:36:49,040
mental then

1112
00:36:54,630 --> 00:36:51,040
rigorously speaking i have to part with

1113
00:36:58,150 --> 00:36:54,640
the correspondence theory of truth

1114
00:36:59,990 --> 00:36:58,160
but there are we need a useful

1115
00:37:01,910 --> 00:37:00,000
theory of truth because otherwise we

1116
00:37:04,069 --> 00:37:01,920
open the gates to all kinds of nonsense

1117
00:37:05,990 --> 00:37:04,079
if we can't differentiate the things we

1118
00:37:06,630 --> 00:37:06,000
normally label true from the things we

1119
00:37:11,589 --> 00:37:06,640
normally

1120
00:37:14,390 --> 00:37:11,599
to all kinds of stupidity

1121
00:37:15,910 --> 00:37:14,400
and nonsensical and conspiracy theories

1122
00:37:17,430 --> 00:37:15,920
which are very popular today

1123
00:37:19,510 --> 00:37:17,440
do i think we have to do that no

1124
00:37:19,829 --> 00:37:19,520
absolutely not i think we should stick

1125
00:37:23,349 --> 00:37:19,839
to

1126
00:37:26,630 --> 00:37:23,359
a coherence theory of truth

1127
00:37:29,270 --> 00:37:26,640
in other words things that fit

1128
00:37:30,310 --> 00:37:29,280
with the data and our reasoning can be

1129
00:37:33,589 --> 00:37:30,320
said to be true

1130
00:37:34,790 --> 00:37:33,599
as such to be true as things that fit

1131
00:37:37,589 --> 00:37:34,800
with observations

1132
00:37:39,510 --> 00:37:37,599
and reasoning notice that i'm not making

1133
00:37:41,190 --> 00:37:39,520
a metaphysical inference from this i'm

1134
00:37:43,109 --> 00:37:41,200
not saying that these two true things

1135
00:37:45,109 --> 00:37:43,119
exist outside mentation

1136
00:37:46,310 --> 00:37:45,119
i'm just saying that they are true by

1137
00:37:49,030 --> 00:37:46,320
virtue of

1138
00:37:50,069 --> 00:37:49,040
fitting with our reasoning and the

1139
00:37:53,270 --> 00:37:50,079
evidence we can

1140
00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:53,280
access and that allows for a theory of

1141
00:37:57,589 --> 00:37:54,240
truth that works

1142
00:37:59,589 --> 00:37:57,599
in every instance in practice

1143
00:38:01,589 --> 00:37:59,599
now what theory of truth do i hold for

1144
00:38:03,990 --> 00:38:01,599
myself so i'm not talking about

1145
00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:04,000
interaction of human beings and social

1146
00:38:07,750 --> 00:38:06,240
life and politics and economics not

1147
00:38:08,950 --> 00:38:07,760
about any of that i'm talking about what

1148
00:38:11,510 --> 00:38:08,960
i hold true when i

1149
00:38:13,030 --> 00:38:11,520
put my head on my pillow alone at night

1150
00:38:14,470 --> 00:38:13,040
in the darkness of my room well with my

1151
00:38:16,310 --> 00:38:14,480
girlfriend next to me but

1152
00:38:18,069 --> 00:38:16,320
when i am alone in the sense of in my

1153
00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:18,079
own mental space

1154
00:38:21,270 --> 00:38:19,920
the one theory of truth i hold as

1155
00:38:23,910 --> 00:38:21,280
fundamental is that

1156
00:38:25,829 --> 00:38:23,920
there is only mind not my mind there is

1157
00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:25,839
only mind

1158
00:38:29,349 --> 00:38:27,760
and everything else are the products of

1159
00:38:33,109 --> 00:38:29,359
that mind

1160
00:38:36,630 --> 00:38:33,119
and within that richness of mental

1161
00:38:37,510 --> 00:38:36,640
creation we can classify some as true

1162
00:38:40,230 --> 00:38:37,520
because they

1163
00:38:42,390 --> 00:38:40,240
fit into the coherence of the edifice of

1164
00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:42,400
reason and evidence that we've built

1165
00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:44,560
and we can say that others are untrue

1166
00:38:48,710 --> 00:38:45,599
but the others

1167
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:48,720
do exist as experiences

1168
00:38:54,310 --> 00:38:51,920
um a schizophrenic person

1169
00:38:55,109 --> 00:38:54,320
does have the schizophrenic experiences

1170
00:38:58,310 --> 00:38:55,119
they exist

1171
00:39:00,550 --> 00:38:58,320
as such as experiences they just don't

1172
00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:00,560
apply to the collective so

1173
00:39:06,790 --> 00:39:04,320
when a schizophrenic says i've met jesus

1174
00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:06,800
and he touched me and blessed me i would

1175
00:39:10,710 --> 00:39:07,440
say

1176
00:39:11,990 --> 00:39:10,720
fantastic hold on to that it's an

1177
00:39:14,390 --> 00:39:12,000
experience you've had

1178
00:39:15,190 --> 00:39:14,400
and it is true as such nobody can take

1179
00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:15,200
it from you

1180
00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:17,359
but when that person comes and says and

1181
00:39:20,550 --> 00:39:19,920
because of that i am the emissary of god

1182
00:39:24,069 --> 00:39:20,560
on earth and

1183
00:39:26,710 --> 00:39:24,079
should all follow me then i would say no

1184
00:39:27,190 --> 00:39:26,720
now it's untrue because it doesn't fit

1185
00:39:30,950 --> 00:39:27,200
with

1186
00:39:33,190 --> 00:39:30,960
reasoning

1187
00:39:34,310 --> 00:39:33,200
and with the evidence that we have

1188
00:39:36,790 --> 00:39:34,320
access to

1189
00:39:38,069 --> 00:39:36,800
and therefore from at the collective

1190
00:39:40,069 --> 00:39:38,079
social level that is

1191
00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:40,079
untrue not by virtue that it is

1192
00:39:44,790 --> 00:39:42,400
metaphysically other than the truth

1193
00:39:45,829 --> 00:39:44,800
but by virtue of not fitting the scheme

1194
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:45,839
of things

1195
00:39:49,270 --> 00:39:48,240
i see i see so we're all part of this

1196
00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:49,280
one

1197
00:39:51,910 --> 00:39:50,560
for people who are listening it's called

1198
00:39:52,390 --> 00:39:51,920
mind at large at least that's what you

1199
00:39:53,829 --> 00:39:52,400
call it

1200
00:39:55,750 --> 00:39:53,839
we're all part of this one mind do you

1201
00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:55,760
think this mind mind at large can be

1202
00:39:58,310 --> 00:39:56,560
grasped

1203
00:40:00,069 --> 00:39:58,320
mathematically with mathematical

1204
00:40:01,349 --> 00:40:00,079
concepts because

1205
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:01,359
when i was listening to you what i'm

1206
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:03,440
thinking of is

1207
00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:05,680
it's easy for some people to say that

1208
00:40:08,230 --> 00:40:06,640
they've

1209
00:40:09,829 --> 00:40:08,240
skirted the heart problem of

1210
00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:09,839
consciousness by simply positing

1211
00:40:13,910 --> 00:40:10,720
consciousness

1212
00:40:14,470 --> 00:40:13,920
but to me well that's like saying i've

1213
00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:14,480
explained

1214
00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:16,240
the mildly positive nature of the

1215
00:40:19,430 --> 00:40:17,920
cosmological constant by saying well

1216
00:40:22,390 --> 00:40:19,440
it's mildly positive i just

1217
00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:22,400
posit that as a given and to me i'm like

1218
00:40:27,109 --> 00:40:24,000
well that doesn't explain it

1219
00:40:28,710 --> 00:40:27,119
the fact that i experience green saying

1220
00:40:31,430 --> 00:40:28,720
well green is a primitive

1221
00:40:33,589 --> 00:40:31,440
to me doesn't explain it so can you help

1222
00:40:35,589 --> 00:40:33,599
me out with that

1223
00:40:37,990 --> 00:40:35,599
well i wouldn't even say that green is a

1224
00:40:40,069 --> 00:40:38,000
primitive i would say

1225
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:40,079
phenomenal consciousness is a primitive

1226
00:40:44,630 --> 00:40:42,240
and green is a particular pattern of

1227
00:40:47,270 --> 00:40:44,640
excitation of phenomenal consciousness

1228
00:40:48,710 --> 00:40:47,280
in the same way that a particular

1229
00:40:50,950 --> 00:40:48,720
pattern of ripples

1230
00:40:52,309 --> 00:40:50,960
is an excitation of the lake there is

1231
00:40:54,790 --> 00:40:52,319
nothing to the ripples but

1232
00:40:56,390 --> 00:40:54,800
the lake and yet you can discern

1233
00:40:57,910 --> 00:40:56,400
different patterns of ripples you throw

1234
00:40:59,109 --> 00:40:57,920
a stone on one side of the lake it will

1235
00:41:00,710 --> 00:40:59,119
look different than you

1236
00:41:02,470 --> 00:41:00,720
throw a car on the other side of the

1237
00:41:03,670 --> 00:41:02,480
lake the lake will ripple

1238
00:41:05,990 --> 00:41:03,680
differently there will be

1239
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:06,000
differentiation arising from the unity

1240
00:41:09,589 --> 00:41:08,560
of the lake and at no point there will

1241
00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:09,599
be anything

1242
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:12,160
other than the lake the ripples have no

1243
00:41:15,030 --> 00:41:14,160
standalone existence they are patterns

1244
00:41:17,910 --> 00:41:15,040
of movement

1245
00:41:20,230 --> 00:41:17,920
of excitation of the lake but within

1246
00:41:22,309 --> 00:41:20,240
that context we can talk of diversity

1247
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:22,319
many different types of ripples ripples

1248
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:23,839
of different height different speed

1249
00:41:28,950 --> 00:41:26,160
different length different shape so i

1250
00:41:31,430 --> 00:41:28,960
think green is a ripple

1251
00:41:32,870 --> 00:41:31,440
sourness is another ripple falling in

1252
00:41:34,230 --> 00:41:32,880
love is a ripple

1253
00:41:36,150 --> 00:41:34,240
these are different patterns of

1254
00:41:37,910 --> 00:41:36,160
excitation of the one substrate of

1255
00:41:40,150 --> 00:41:37,920
existence which i think is

1256
00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:40,160
universal phenomenal consciousness this

1257
00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:42,000
doesn't deny the emergence

1258
00:41:46,470 --> 00:41:44,880
of diversity on the contrary it grants

1259
00:41:49,270 --> 00:41:46,480
that diversity exists

1260
00:41:49,990 --> 00:41:49,280
by virtue of this multiple possible

1261
00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:50,000
patterns

1262
00:41:54,150 --> 00:41:52,960
of excitation of the one entity that

1263
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:54,160
truly exists

1264
00:41:57,670 --> 00:41:57,040
and i would say that all mathematics

1265
00:42:01,270 --> 00:41:57,680
that has

1266
00:42:03,510 --> 00:42:01,280
ever been done has done

1267
00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:03,520
none other than to describe those

1268
00:42:06,550 --> 00:42:05,760
ripples of minds the patterns of those

1269
00:42:09,109 --> 00:42:06,560
ripples

1270
00:42:09,910 --> 00:42:09,119
the archetypal patterns according to

1271
00:42:13,190 --> 00:42:09,920
which

1272
00:42:15,430 --> 00:42:13,200
those ripples tend to unfold um

1273
00:42:17,430 --> 00:42:15,440
we you know we have resonance theory

1274
00:42:18,950 --> 00:42:17,440
which is a beautifully informative

1275
00:42:21,910 --> 00:42:18,960
theory applicable to all kinds of

1276
00:42:26,230 --> 00:42:21,920
situations it basically says that every

1277
00:42:27,990 --> 00:42:26,240
object has certain modal frequencies of

1278
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:28,000
excitation frequencies in which it

1279
00:42:31,030 --> 00:42:29,520
preferably oscillates

1280
00:42:33,190 --> 00:42:31,040
like if you put somebody in a swing and

1281
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:33,200
you push that person if you push that

1282
00:42:35,430 --> 00:42:33,680
person

1283
00:42:37,030 --> 00:42:35,440
faster than the swing wants to go the

1284
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:37,040
person will stop moving because there

1285
00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:37,680
will be

1286
00:42:41,750 --> 00:42:39,920
a destructive interference but if you

1287
00:42:43,829 --> 00:42:41,760
push that person in the exact same

1288
00:42:45,510 --> 00:42:43,839
frequency that the swing wants to move

1289
00:42:47,430 --> 00:42:45,520
it will build up and there will be

1290
00:42:49,670 --> 00:42:47,440
resonance and

1291
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:49,680
builders in japan protect themselves

1292
00:42:54,069 --> 00:42:50,960
against earthquakes

1293
00:42:56,870 --> 00:42:54,079
precisely by trying to not be in that

1294
00:42:58,390 --> 00:42:56,880
in that harmonic of of of the earthquake

1295
00:42:59,190 --> 00:42:58,400
or otherwise it will resonate with the

1296
00:43:02,870 --> 00:42:59,200
earthquake and

1297
00:43:05,829 --> 00:43:02,880
it will crumble i think what

1298
00:43:06,950 --> 00:43:05,839
mathematics is showing us is that mind

1299
00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:06,960
itself

1300
00:43:13,270 --> 00:43:10,240
has some harmonics it has some

1301
00:43:14,230 --> 00:43:13,280
preferred frequencies in which it tends

1302
00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:14,240
to oscillate

1303
00:43:18,309 --> 00:43:16,720
better than in other frequencies jungian

1304
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:18,319
psychologists would call it the

1305
00:43:23,030 --> 00:43:20,240
archetypes of the collective unconscious

1306
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:23,040
the templates of behavior and feeling

1307
00:43:26,230 --> 00:43:25,200
that tend to manifest more frequently

1308
00:43:29,270 --> 00:43:26,240
and mathematics

1309
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:29,280
models that everything mathematics has

1310
00:43:34,630 --> 00:43:32,560
ever done was to model the patterns of

1311
00:43:36,309 --> 00:43:34,640
excitation of mind it has never done

1312
00:43:38,069 --> 00:43:36,319
anything else so if you're asking me ask

1313
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:38,079
me can it do that i would say

1314
00:43:45,829 --> 00:43:40,960
obviously it can because it has never

1315
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:47,270
okay so what i was saying is that these

1316
00:43:50,630 --> 00:43:49,200
union archetypes they don't seem to be

1317
00:43:51,510 --> 00:43:50,640
modeled mathematically they seem

1318
00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:51,520
amorphous

1319
00:43:55,030 --> 00:43:53,280
and ill-defined but yet you're saying

1320
00:43:55,589 --> 00:43:55,040
that undergirding existence are these

1321
00:43:59,829 --> 00:43:55,599
ripples

1322
00:44:01,349 --> 00:43:59,839
obviously easily modeled mathematically

1323
00:44:02,470 --> 00:44:01,359
so i'm assuming you're using ripples as

1324
00:44:05,270 --> 00:44:02,480
a as a metaphor

1325
00:44:08,309 --> 00:44:05,280
of course then is there hope to model

1326
00:44:09,910 --> 00:44:08,319
jung's archetypes mathematically

1327
00:44:11,589 --> 00:44:09,920
again i think we've never done anything

1328
00:44:13,430 --> 00:44:11,599
differently but let me preface this with

1329
00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:13,440
a disclaimer i'm not saying that

1330
00:44:17,910 --> 00:44:15,520
mathematics can only model

1331
00:44:19,349 --> 00:44:17,920
human psychology of course not it can

1332
00:44:21,270 --> 00:44:19,359
model the world it has been

1333
00:44:23,030 --> 00:44:21,280
spectacularly successful

1334
00:44:24,950 --> 00:44:23,040
at modeling black holes and and

1335
00:44:27,349 --> 00:44:24,960
predicting the behavior of black holes

1336
00:44:29,190 --> 00:44:27,359
it has been spectacularly successful

1337
00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:29,200
at modeling the microscopic world of

1338
00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:30,800
quantum physics

1339
00:44:34,870 --> 00:44:32,960
so obviously mathematics models the

1340
00:44:37,910 --> 00:44:34,880
models the world out there

1341
00:44:41,270 --> 00:44:37,920
which is precisely the mystery

1342
00:44:43,030 --> 00:44:41,280
physicist eugene wigner wrote a paper in

1343
00:44:45,270 --> 00:44:43,040
1960

1344
00:44:46,390 --> 00:44:45,280
titled the the the effect the the

1345
00:44:48,230 --> 00:44:46,400
mysterious effect

1346
00:44:49,430 --> 00:44:48,240
effectiveness of mathematics to model

1347
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:49,440
the natural world

1348
00:44:53,349 --> 00:44:51,920
he uses the world miracle 12 times in

1349
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:53,359
that paper because

1350
00:45:00,470 --> 00:44:56,480
for him it's a miracle that our

1351
00:45:05,270 --> 00:45:00,480
logic our mathematical

1352
00:45:07,829 --> 00:45:05,280
tenets are so incredibly accurate

1353
00:45:09,349 --> 00:45:07,839
at modeling the world outside our own

1354
00:45:11,750 --> 00:45:09,359
personal minds

1355
00:45:13,910 --> 00:45:11,760
why should that be the case and there is

1356
00:45:14,790 --> 00:45:13,920
no good reason why that should be the

1357
00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:14,800
case and

1358
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:18,640
wigner was in wonder that mathematics

1359
00:45:23,670 --> 00:45:20,400
could do that that somebody

1360
00:45:24,790 --> 00:45:23,680
in the in the solemn isolation of his

1361
00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:24,800
armchair

1362
00:45:29,270 --> 00:45:26,800
could think up equations that turn out

1363
00:45:29,910 --> 00:45:29,280
to predict quasars and black holes and

1364
00:45:33,430 --> 00:45:29,920
quantum

1365
00:45:35,190 --> 00:45:33,440
phenomena it's incredible why is that

1366
00:45:37,750 --> 00:45:35,200
the case

1367
00:45:40,309 --> 00:45:37,760
just to complete this i would say that

1368
00:45:43,750 --> 00:45:40,319
it is the case because both our minds

1369
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:43,760
our personal minds and nature at large

1370
00:45:47,109 --> 00:45:44,400
they both

1371
00:45:48,950 --> 00:45:47,119
rest on the same thing on the same

1372
00:45:50,790 --> 00:45:48,960
natural mind

1373
00:45:52,150 --> 00:45:50,800
the the inanimate universe we study and

1374
00:45:54,190 --> 00:45:52,160
describe with math

1375
00:45:55,670 --> 00:45:54,200
is just the appearance the image the

1376
00:45:58,550 --> 00:45:55,680
representation

1377
00:45:59,270 --> 00:45:58,560
of transpersonal mental processes out

1378
00:46:01,510 --> 00:45:59,280
there

1379
00:46:02,630 --> 00:46:01,520
which also comport themselves in

1380
00:46:04,550 --> 00:46:02,640
preferred ways

1381
00:46:07,190 --> 00:46:04,560
in archetypal ways if you want to

1382
00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:07,200
extrapolate the jungian definition

1383
00:46:12,390 --> 00:46:10,480
so at the ultimate sense i would equate

1384
00:46:13,670 --> 00:46:12,400
nature with the archetypes of the

1385
00:46:15,670 --> 00:46:13,680
collective unconscious

1386
00:46:17,910 --> 00:46:15,680
but by doing this i'm not saying that

1387
00:46:19,750 --> 00:46:17,920
mathematics is not applicable to quasars

1388
00:46:20,630 --> 00:46:19,760
and black holes i'm saying that quasars

1389
00:46:23,910 --> 00:46:20,640
and black holes

1390
00:46:26,630 --> 00:46:23,920
are themselves the expression the image

1391
00:46:27,589 --> 00:46:26,640
the way transpersonal archetypal mental

1392
00:46:29,829 --> 00:46:27,599
processes

1393
00:46:30,950 --> 00:46:29,839
appear when observed from our

1394
00:46:34,630 --> 00:46:30,960
perspective

1395
00:46:36,150 --> 00:46:34,640
so defining archetypes this broadly

1396
00:46:38,150 --> 00:46:36,160
you may think it's a trick it's a bit of

1397
00:46:39,990 --> 00:46:38,160
a trick but if i define archetypes this

1398
00:46:41,430 --> 00:46:40,000
broadly then i would say mathematics

1399
00:46:43,190 --> 00:46:41,440
models the archetypes

1400
00:46:45,510 --> 00:46:43,200
because it's modeling the patterns and

1401
00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:45,520
regularities of nature

1402
00:46:49,190 --> 00:46:48,560
when you do not have regularity then you

1403
00:46:51,030 --> 00:46:49,200
have

1404
00:46:52,950 --> 00:46:51,040
randomness and that's not modeled but

1405
00:46:55,670 --> 00:46:52,960
well it actually is modeled by

1406
00:46:57,349 --> 00:46:55,680
mathematics but not in a precise way

1407
00:46:59,270 --> 00:46:57,359
you can measure certain overall

1408
00:47:00,950 --> 00:46:59,280
properties of randomness but not the

1409
00:47:03,349 --> 00:47:00,960
particular instances of

1410
00:47:05,109 --> 00:47:03,359
every aspect of a random process so

1411
00:47:06,230 --> 00:47:05,119
mathematics of course only models

1412
00:47:10,550 --> 00:47:06,240
regularities

1413
00:47:14,550 --> 00:47:10,560
both in our personal mind and nature

1414
00:47:16,790 --> 00:47:14,560
at large are regular by virtue

1415
00:47:18,790 --> 00:47:16,800
of being the expressions of this

1416
00:47:20,710 --> 00:47:18,800
fundamental harmonics

1417
00:47:22,230 --> 00:47:20,720
of this one mind underlying all

1418
00:47:24,390 --> 00:47:22,240
existence

1419
00:47:25,910 --> 00:47:24,400
the archetypal manifestations of this

1420
00:47:27,030 --> 00:47:25,920
one mind it's by virtue of being

1421
00:47:29,270 --> 00:47:27,040
archetypal

1422
00:47:31,349 --> 00:47:29,280
that they are regular otherwise there

1423
00:47:33,910 --> 00:47:31,359
would be no regularity if there were no

1424
00:47:35,430 --> 00:47:33,920
favorite modes of excitation no

1425
00:47:38,470 --> 00:47:35,440
preferred modes

1426
00:47:40,309 --> 00:47:38,480
of behavior no resonant frequencies no

1427
00:47:41,349 --> 00:47:40,319
harmonics if you will if there weren't

1428
00:47:43,030 --> 00:47:41,359
any of these

1429
00:47:44,390 --> 00:47:43,040
there would be nothing for mathematics

1430
00:47:46,549 --> 00:47:44,400
to model because nothing would be

1431
00:47:49,349 --> 00:47:46,559
irregular it would be just random noise

1432
00:47:50,309 --> 00:47:49,359
obviously it's not so what's mathematics

1433
00:47:52,950 --> 00:47:50,319
measuring

1434
00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:52,960
by my own definition it's modeling the

1435
00:47:56,390 --> 00:47:54,720
archetypes of all nature the inner

1436
00:47:58,309 --> 00:47:56,400
archetypes and the outer archetypes

1437
00:48:00,230 --> 00:47:58,319
they are one and the same thing is it

1438
00:48:01,190 --> 00:48:00,240
possible that there exists this random

1439
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:01,200
noise that's not

1440
00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:02,880
patterned and it's just that because

1441
00:48:06,790 --> 00:48:04,559
it's chaotic we don't even perceive it

1442
00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:06,800
it's not within our realm

1443
00:48:09,829 --> 00:48:08,240
you know there are many things we

1444
00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:09,839
thought in our earlier scientific

1445
00:48:12,790 --> 00:48:11,440
history that were random and now we know

1446
00:48:14,390 --> 00:48:12,800
that they are not random at all it's

1447
00:48:16,069 --> 00:48:14,400
just that the cause of chains involved

1448
00:48:17,829 --> 00:48:16,079
they're so complex that we can't keep

1449
00:48:19,990 --> 00:48:17,839
track of them

1450
00:48:21,670 --> 00:48:20,000
so when we throw a coin we know that

1451
00:48:23,990 --> 00:48:21,680
there's nothing random about that

1452
00:48:25,750 --> 00:48:24,000
it's it's about the air flow it's about

1453
00:48:27,190 --> 00:48:25,760
the weight distribution and the center

1454
00:48:30,150 --> 00:48:27,200
of mass of the coin

1455
00:48:31,910 --> 00:48:30,160
it's about the particular angular and

1456
00:48:33,349 --> 00:48:31,920
linear momentum that you imparted on a

1457
00:48:35,270 --> 00:48:33,359
coin when you threw it

1458
00:48:37,030 --> 00:48:35,280
but it's impossible to keep track of all

1459
00:48:38,950 --> 00:48:37,040
that so we say well the

1460
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:38,960
the coin throw is random well it's not

1461
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:40,160
fundamentally random

1462
00:48:43,829 --> 00:48:41,839
it's epistemically random in the sense

1463
00:48:44,470 --> 00:48:43,839
that we can't keep track of it but it's

1464
00:48:47,030 --> 00:48:44,480
there

1465
00:48:48,549 --> 00:48:47,040
now i would say that every single time

1466
00:48:49,910 --> 00:48:48,559
we figured out that what we thought was

1467
00:48:51,109 --> 00:48:49,920
fundamentally random was just

1468
00:48:53,270 --> 00:48:51,119
epistemically random

1469
00:48:55,190 --> 00:48:53,280
there is one exception today and that's

1470
00:48:57,510 --> 00:48:55,200
the particular outcome of

1471
00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:57,520
one quantum process we know that when we

1472
00:49:02,230 --> 00:48:59,280
take a set of quantum

1473
00:49:04,309 --> 00:49:02,240
events together that set is predictable

1474
00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:04,319
it has some statistical characteristics

1475
00:49:08,710 --> 00:49:06,000
that are predictable

1476
00:49:11,349 --> 00:49:08,720
but a single quantum event is completely

1477
00:49:15,030 --> 00:49:11,359
and fundamentally unpredictable today

1478
00:49:17,750 --> 00:49:15,040
now i would dare to say that

1479
00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:17,760
this again is an instance of epistemic

1480
00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:18,880
randomness

1481
00:49:24,630 --> 00:49:22,480
that we don't have the theoretical

1482
00:49:26,790 --> 00:49:24,640
apparatus in place to convince ourselves

1483
00:49:28,630 --> 00:49:26,800
that it's just that we can't keep track

1484
00:49:29,190 --> 00:49:28,640
of what's going on so we think it's

1485
00:49:30,710 --> 00:49:29,200
random

1486
00:49:32,790 --> 00:49:30,720
but i don't think it is fundamentally

1487
00:49:34,069 --> 00:49:32,800
random i don't think randomness exists

1488
00:49:36,630 --> 00:49:34,079
fundamentally

1489
00:49:38,470 --> 00:49:36,640
i think the very concept of change is an

1490
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:38,480
appeal to epistemic limitations in other

1491
00:49:41,270 --> 00:49:40,079
words when we don't know what causes it

1492
00:49:42,710 --> 00:49:41,280
we say it's by chance

1493
00:49:44,950 --> 00:49:42,720
but it's not by chance at all it's just

1494
00:49:46,230 --> 00:49:44,960
that we don't know what the causal chain

1495
00:49:48,309 --> 00:49:46,240
behind that was

1496
00:49:50,390 --> 00:49:48,319
and it may be that there are patterns

1497
00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:50,400
and regularities in nature that exceed

1498
00:49:53,750 --> 00:49:51,760
causality

1499
00:49:55,349 --> 00:49:53,760
that don't fit into our current

1500
00:49:56,870 --> 00:49:55,359
definition of causality

1501
00:49:59,510 --> 00:49:56,880
so you could say that certain things are

1502
00:50:00,470 --> 00:49:59,520
a-causal but not that they are random

1503
00:50:01,829 --> 00:50:00,480
it's just that

1504
00:50:04,230 --> 00:50:01,839
they are obeying patterns and

1505
00:50:06,950 --> 00:50:04,240
irregularities of a different nature

1506
00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:06,960
than the linearity of causal chains

1507
00:50:11,109 --> 00:50:09,200
there may be

1508
00:50:13,190 --> 00:50:11,119
resonant patterns of vibration

1509
00:50:15,190 --> 00:50:13,200
sympathetic

1510
00:50:17,109 --> 00:50:15,200
influences in nature things that look

1511
00:50:18,790 --> 00:50:17,119
alike that tend to happen together

1512
00:50:21,349 --> 00:50:18,800
even though they are not connected by a

1513
00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:21,359
causal chain of events

1514
00:50:24,950 --> 00:50:23,440
what jung called synchronicity so i'm

1515
00:50:27,190 --> 00:50:24,960
open to the idea that there is

1516
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:27,200
more to the patterns and irregularities

1517
00:50:30,630 --> 00:50:28,160
of nature

1518
00:50:32,230 --> 00:50:30,640
than the processes that fit into what we

1519
00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:32,240
would call causality

1520
00:50:35,349 --> 00:50:33,920
but that is only because our definition

1521
00:50:37,030 --> 00:50:35,359
of causality is limited

1522
00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:37,040
which gives value to the word you know

1523
00:50:40,630 --> 00:50:38,640
if we make this definition too broad

1524
00:50:41,750 --> 00:50:40,640
then the word means nothing but what we

1525
00:50:44,549 --> 00:50:41,760
call causality

1526
00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:44,559
may not be the whole story but i think

1527
00:50:47,910 --> 00:50:46,559
whatever is the whole story it's an

1528
00:50:49,910 --> 00:50:47,920
expression of the patterns and

1529
00:50:52,710 --> 00:50:49,920
regularities inherent in nature

1530
00:50:54,630 --> 00:50:52,720
and therefore inherit in the mind of

1531
00:50:56,470 --> 00:50:54,640
nature and in our own minds and that's

1532
00:50:58,549 --> 00:50:56,480
why

1533
00:51:00,230 --> 00:50:58,559
wigner's miracle is not a miracle at all

1534
00:51:00,950 --> 00:51:00,240
that's why mathematics can describe the

1535
00:51:03,109 --> 00:51:00,960
world

1536
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:03,119
both are rooted in one and the same mind

1537
00:51:08,150 --> 00:51:04,720
obeying the one and same

1538
00:51:10,069 --> 00:51:08,160
at the same archetypes before

1539
00:51:11,270 --> 00:51:10,079
we went live we were talking about how i

1540
00:51:14,710 --> 00:51:11,280
had some experience

1541
00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:14,720
with let's say some greater reality

1542
00:51:21,430 --> 00:51:18,400
maybe or not it may be and

1543
00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:21,440
it it provoked extreme anxiety in me

1544
00:51:24,870 --> 00:51:23,040
and then you told me well kurt i mean

1545
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:24,880
that what i thought could be true but it

1546
00:51:27,510 --> 00:51:26,160
also could not be and the mind is

1547
00:51:29,190 --> 00:51:27,520
exceedingly deceptive

1548
00:51:31,270 --> 00:51:29,200
so what i'm wondering is so is mind

1549
00:51:33,190 --> 00:51:31,280
deceptive or is it just our narratives

1550
00:51:34,950 --> 00:51:33,200
about the sensory data that becomes

1551
00:51:36,790 --> 00:51:34,960
distorted or

1552
00:51:38,549 --> 00:51:36,800
is mind at large somehow

1553
00:51:41,430 --> 00:51:38,559
constitutionally deceptive

1554
00:51:41,990 --> 00:51:41,440
and if so then how do we sort out what

1555
00:51:44,950 --> 00:51:42,000
is

1556
00:51:46,150 --> 00:51:44,960
true from what's not what do we use as a

1557
00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:46,160
barometer to guide

1558
00:51:50,230 --> 00:51:48,960
our life is it divine revelation well

1559
00:51:52,950 --> 00:51:50,240
you already said well

1560
00:51:53,990 --> 00:51:52,960
we have to do away with that the thing

1561
00:51:57,589 --> 00:51:54,000
is

1562
00:51:59,910 --> 00:51:57,599
most of the world we think we live in

1563
00:52:00,630 --> 00:51:59,920
arises from our inner narratives from

1564
00:52:04,390 --> 00:52:00,640
our inner

1565
00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:04,400
storytelling um we don't see the world

1566
00:52:08,470 --> 00:52:05,680
impartially at all

1567
00:52:11,030 --> 00:52:08,480
uh we tile it with narratives with what

1568
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:11,040
we tell ourselves is going on

1569
00:52:15,349 --> 00:52:13,119
and i think the deception that is the

1570
00:52:18,150 --> 00:52:15,359
prime directive of mind

1571
00:52:19,190 --> 00:52:18,160
is in weaving these narratives it's not

1572
00:52:20,950 --> 00:52:19,200
deceptive

1573
00:52:23,589 --> 00:52:20,960
when it comes to what it is in itself

1574
00:52:27,349 --> 00:52:23,599
because it's what it is it cannot

1575
00:52:28,069 --> 00:52:27,359
deceive itself other than by telling

1576
00:52:30,870 --> 00:52:28,079
itself

1577
00:52:31,670 --> 00:52:30,880
a wrong story about what it is but it

1578
00:52:33,589 --> 00:52:31,680
cannot be

1579
00:52:35,270 --> 00:52:33,599
deceiving itself in the sense of being

1580
00:52:36,870 --> 00:52:35,280
something other than what it is it is

1581
00:52:37,430 --> 00:52:36,880
what it is and that's what it is you

1582
00:52:39,270 --> 00:52:37,440
know that

1583
00:52:40,870 --> 00:52:39,280
there is no escape from that so in that

1584
00:52:44,069 --> 00:52:40,880
sense there is no deception

1585
00:52:47,589 --> 00:52:44,079
whatever is is has always been

1586
00:52:49,349 --> 00:52:47,599
and whenever will always be the problem

1587
00:52:51,349 --> 00:52:49,359
sorry here's one way that you can

1588
00:52:53,829 --> 00:52:51,359
recover that it is what it is and also

1589
00:52:54,790 --> 00:52:53,839
that it's that it is necessarily

1590
00:52:56,230 --> 00:52:54,800
distorted

1591
00:52:57,750 --> 00:52:56,240
because let's imagine consciousness is a

1592
00:52:59,190 --> 00:52:57,760
circle i know this is foolish but let's

1593
00:52:59,910 --> 00:52:59,200
imagine it's a circle and then it has

1594
00:53:02,630 --> 00:52:59,920
ripples that come

1595
00:53:04,150 --> 00:53:02,640
out somehow maybe there's another law on

1596
00:53:04,870 --> 00:53:04,160
top of this that when the ripples come

1597
00:53:08,870 --> 00:53:04,880
back to you

1598
00:53:12,630 --> 00:53:11,270
not what it was when it left so you

1599
00:53:14,309 --> 00:53:12,640
could all you could recover that it's

1600
00:53:17,670 --> 00:53:14,319
necessarily

1601
00:53:19,030 --> 00:53:17,680
think there's much of

1602
00:53:20,309 --> 00:53:19,040
the buddhist traditions that say

1603
00:53:21,030 --> 00:53:20,319
something like this now you will know

1604
00:53:24,790 --> 00:53:21,040
much more

1605
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:24,800
so there you go i'm not an expert in

1606
00:53:29,910 --> 00:53:26,880
eastern philosophy at all actually

1607
00:53:31,349 --> 00:53:29,920
um look there are certain coherence

1608
00:53:35,109 --> 00:53:31,359
constraints that can

1609
00:53:38,470 --> 00:53:35,119
base a useful practical theory of truth

1610
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:38,480
um but those coherence constraints

1611
00:53:42,309 --> 00:53:40,880
necessarily necessarily arise out of

1612
00:53:46,230 --> 00:53:42,319
some

1613
00:53:48,630 --> 00:53:46,240
collective engagement so we can say that

1614
00:53:50,069 --> 00:53:48,640
given our stories our collective stories

1615
00:53:52,950 --> 00:53:50,079
about what is reasonable

1616
00:53:53,829 --> 00:53:52,960
and what is evidentiary we can eliminate

1617
00:53:55,349 --> 00:53:53,839
certain things

1618
00:53:57,109 --> 00:53:55,359
as untrue and i think that's entirely

1619
00:53:58,790 --> 00:53:57,119
valid not only valid it's crucially

1620
00:53:59,910 --> 00:53:58,800
necessary for social life

1621
00:54:02,630 --> 00:53:59,920
otherwise it would be completely

1622
00:54:06,390 --> 00:54:02,640
dysfunctional but i think

1623
00:54:10,309 --> 00:54:06,400
at the bottom of it all there is just

1624
00:54:13,349 --> 00:54:10,319
mind being mined and then telling

1625
00:54:15,349 --> 00:54:13,359
itself narratives about what it is and

1626
00:54:18,549 --> 00:54:15,359
that's where the deception occur

1627
00:54:19,910 --> 00:54:18,559
uh um it is in the narrative it seems

1628
00:54:21,270 --> 00:54:19,920
like it's unadaptive or unless

1629
00:54:24,309 --> 00:54:21,280
it is adaptive like you're saying it's

1630
00:54:25,670 --> 00:54:24,319
highly truth it's incredibly adaptive

1631
00:54:28,230 --> 00:54:25,680
you could say that without these

1632
00:54:31,829 --> 00:54:28,240
narratives nothing would be real

1633
00:54:33,750 --> 00:54:31,839
it is the process of self deception that

1634
00:54:36,390 --> 00:54:33,760
creates

1635
00:54:37,430 --> 00:54:36,400
any sense of objectivity and

1636
00:54:40,870 --> 00:54:37,440
concreteness and

1637
00:54:43,829 --> 00:54:40,880
reality uh without those narratives

1638
00:54:45,750 --> 00:54:43,839
you're always in always resting in that

1639
00:54:47,990 --> 00:54:45,760
awareness that whatever is arising is

1640
00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:48,000
just you making it up

1641
00:54:51,270 --> 00:54:50,000
you see the one mind in nature is making

1642
00:54:54,069 --> 00:54:51,280
it all up

1643
00:54:55,670 --> 00:54:54,079
for it to have a sense of reality in in

1644
00:54:56,710 --> 00:54:55,680
in other words and that's our intuition

1645
00:54:59,109 --> 00:54:56,720
about what's real

1646
00:55:00,789 --> 00:54:59,119
is that which exists regardless of

1647
00:55:02,710 --> 00:55:00,799
whether you believe it or not

1648
00:55:03,990 --> 00:55:02,720
that's our intuition about what's real

1649
00:55:07,430 --> 00:55:04,000
for that sense

1650
00:55:09,270 --> 00:55:07,440
to exist you have to have some kind of

1651
00:55:10,950 --> 00:55:09,280
narrative that creates boundaries in

1652
00:55:13,030 --> 00:55:10,960
nature that creates

1653
00:55:14,549 --> 00:55:13,040
that which i am not and which unfolds

1654
00:55:17,829 --> 00:55:14,559
independently of what i think

1655
00:55:20,069 --> 00:55:17,839
believe or prefer if you don't have that

1656
00:55:21,670 --> 00:55:20,079
there is no reality there is no sense of

1657
00:55:22,390 --> 00:55:21,680
reality there is only the one mind

1658
00:55:23,910 --> 00:55:22,400
knowing

1659
00:55:26,309 --> 00:55:23,920
that it is the only thing going on and

1660
00:55:30,150 --> 00:55:26,319
that whatever arises it's thinking it up

1661
00:55:32,950 --> 00:55:30,160
which probably is the ultimate reality

1662
00:55:33,349 --> 00:55:32,960
but it's not a comforting reality and is

1663
00:55:40,549 --> 00:55:33,359
it

1664
00:55:45,349 --> 00:55:43,589
the english word escapes me the vertigo

1665
00:55:47,349 --> 00:55:45,359
of eternity

1666
00:55:49,190 --> 00:55:47,359
which is better described as the vertigo

1667
00:55:50,870 --> 00:55:49,200
of timelessness uh

1668
00:55:52,710 --> 00:55:50,880
because it is a verb is that akin to the

1669
00:55:53,430 --> 00:55:52,720
void that some people it's nietzsche's

1670
00:55:56,150 --> 00:55:53,440
voice but

1671
00:55:58,069 --> 00:55:56,160
yeah yeah when you look long enough into

1672
00:56:01,190 --> 00:55:58,079
it it stares back at you

1673
00:56:02,069 --> 00:56:01,200
um it's what is that staring at you i

1674
00:56:03,109 --> 00:56:02,079
understand that you can have the

1675
00:56:04,230 --> 00:56:03,119
experience of the void what

1676
00:56:05,430 --> 00:56:04,240
do you mean when you say that the void

1677
00:56:06,230 --> 00:56:05,440
stares back at you i know you're quoting

1678
00:56:08,069 --> 00:56:06,240
nietzsche but

1679
00:56:09,270 --> 00:56:08,079
what does it mean in your model i'll

1680
00:56:11,750 --> 00:56:09,280
tell you what i think

1681
00:56:13,430 --> 00:56:11,760
nietzsche meant okay what nietzsche

1682
00:56:15,349 --> 00:56:13,440
meant is that if you stare enough

1683
00:56:16,630 --> 00:56:15,359
in the into the void of your own

1684
00:56:18,950 --> 00:56:16,640
mentation

1685
00:56:21,270 --> 00:56:18,960
it seems to acquire a life of its own

1686
00:56:24,390 --> 00:56:21,280
and become a separate agency

1687
00:56:24,870 --> 00:56:24,400
and as such it stares back at you it

1688
00:56:27,270 --> 00:56:24,880
sort of

1689
00:56:29,190 --> 00:56:27,280
splits off from yourself and acquires

1690
00:56:31,430 --> 00:56:29,200
objective reality

1691
00:56:32,630 --> 00:56:31,440
jung insisted that the archetypes were

1692
00:56:35,030 --> 00:56:32,640
the objective

1693
00:56:36,870 --> 00:56:35,040
psyche and so it appeals to this sense

1694
00:56:39,910 --> 00:56:36,880
of separation of this sense of

1695
00:56:41,109 --> 00:56:39,920
boundary creation that that creates what

1696
00:56:42,710 --> 00:56:41,119
you are and what you are not

1697
00:56:44,309 --> 00:56:42,720
that which is inside and that's what is

1698
00:56:45,910 --> 00:56:44,319
outside that which is the self and that

1699
00:56:46,870 --> 00:56:45,920
which is not the self the subject and

1700
00:56:49,190 --> 00:56:46,880
the object

1701
00:56:50,230 --> 00:56:49,200
and reality depends on the separation

1702
00:56:52,789 --> 00:56:50,240
our sense

1703
00:56:54,549 --> 00:56:52,799
of what is real depends on it because we

1704
00:56:55,990 --> 00:56:54,559
intuit reality as that which does not

1705
00:56:58,150 --> 00:56:56,000
depend on us

1706
00:56:59,349 --> 00:56:58,160
i think ultimately there is no such a

1707
00:57:02,470 --> 00:56:59,359
thing there is no such

1708
00:57:06,309 --> 00:57:02,480
reality the real reality is that its

1709
00:57:08,390 --> 00:57:06,319
mind making it out all up not randomly

1710
00:57:10,789 --> 00:57:08,400
but by giving expression to its own

1711
00:57:13,829 --> 00:57:10,799
favorite patterns of excitation it's all

1712
00:57:16,390 --> 00:57:13,839
its own harmonics because that's what it

1713
00:57:18,309 --> 00:57:16,400
can do by virtue of being what it is

1714
00:57:20,309 --> 00:57:18,319
and then we place the narratives on that

1715
00:57:23,589 --> 00:57:20,319
and that narrative creates the quote

1716
00:57:27,510 --> 00:57:23,599
a reality of subject and object

1717
00:57:30,470 --> 00:57:27,520
which is extremely useful

1718
00:57:31,990 --> 00:57:30,480
the richness of experience would be much

1719
00:57:35,349 --> 00:57:32,000
less

1720
00:57:38,870 --> 00:57:35,359
if if this were not the case it is

1721
00:57:39,430 --> 00:57:38,880
a sense of separation illusory as it may

1722
00:57:41,750 --> 00:57:39,440
be

1723
00:57:42,470 --> 00:57:41,760
that creates the richness of existence

1724
00:57:45,030 --> 00:57:42,480
that create

1725
00:57:46,870 --> 00:57:45,040
it creates it creates the human drama it

1726
00:57:49,190 --> 00:57:46,880
creates drama

1727
00:57:50,069 --> 00:57:49,200
is this mind at large akin to what in

1728
00:57:53,109 --> 00:57:50,079
other religions

1729
00:57:54,950 --> 00:57:53,119
they call god and can you pray to it

1730
00:57:57,990 --> 00:57:54,960
does it intervene

1731
00:57:59,030 --> 00:57:58,000
i don't think um we have good reasons to

1732
00:58:00,870 --> 00:57:59,040
think of

1733
00:58:02,789 --> 00:58:00,880
the mind underlying the rest of nature

1734
00:58:03,910 --> 00:58:02,799
in other words the mind that's not my

1735
00:58:06,710 --> 00:58:03,920
mind your mind

1736
00:58:08,390 --> 00:58:06,720
the mind of my cat the mind that is not

1737
00:58:09,910 --> 00:58:08,400
in any living being in other words the

1738
00:58:12,870 --> 00:58:09,920
non-dissociated segments

1739
00:58:14,470 --> 00:58:12,880
of of universal mind i think we do not

1740
00:58:16,230 --> 00:58:14,480
have good reasons to think of this

1741
00:58:18,309 --> 00:58:16,240
non-dissociated segment which i

1742
00:58:19,510 --> 00:58:18,319
call mind at large we don't have good

1743
00:58:22,789 --> 00:58:19,520
reasons to think of it

1744
00:58:25,589 --> 00:58:22,799
as self-reflective

1745
00:58:26,710 --> 00:58:25,599
as capable of metacognition of capable

1746
00:58:29,670 --> 00:58:26,720
of having the thought

1747
00:58:32,309 --> 00:58:29,680
oh i am having this thought i think it's

1748
00:58:34,789 --> 00:58:32,319
more akin to my cat it has experiences

1749
00:58:36,710 --> 00:58:34,799
but it doesn't think of its experiences

1750
00:58:38,789 --> 00:58:36,720
as such it's not self-reflective it's

1751
00:58:40,390 --> 00:58:38,799
not metacognitive

1752
00:58:42,630 --> 00:58:40,400
so from that perspective i don't think

1753
00:58:44,549 --> 00:58:42,640
the unfolding of nature is the result of

1754
00:58:46,950 --> 00:58:44,559
a premeditated plan

1755
00:58:49,030 --> 00:58:46,960
drawn in the very beginning of time and

1756
00:58:50,870 --> 00:58:49,040
now carefully unfolding under

1757
00:58:52,630 --> 00:58:50,880
supervision i don't think that's what's

1758
00:58:54,069 --> 00:58:52,640
happening i am a naturalist i think

1759
00:58:56,390 --> 00:58:54,079
nature is unfolding the way it is

1760
00:58:58,870 --> 00:58:56,400
because it is what it is

1761
00:59:00,309 --> 00:58:58,880
it can't be any different i think

1762
00:59:02,309 --> 00:59:00,319
interpreting it as

1763
00:59:05,109 --> 00:59:02,319
mental which i think is what's actually

1764
00:59:07,270 --> 00:59:05,119
going on only informs us that this

1765
00:59:12,230 --> 00:59:07,280
unfolding is instinctive

1766
00:59:15,750 --> 00:59:12,240
rather than premeditated so i wouldn't

1767
00:59:19,430 --> 00:59:15,760
pray to it as if it were

1768
00:59:22,069 --> 00:59:19,440
a thinking human being in the sky

1769
00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:22,079
with a plan and making explicit and

1770
00:59:24,870 --> 00:59:22,720
thought through

1771
00:59:25,829 --> 00:59:24,880
decisions about the fate of every human

1772
00:59:30,549 --> 00:59:25,839
being

1773
00:59:32,150 --> 00:59:30,559
i think i i think that's that's not how

1774
00:59:35,589 --> 00:59:32,160
stuff is happening that's not what's

1775
00:59:37,829 --> 00:59:35,599
going on i think it's unfolding

1776
00:59:40,390 --> 00:59:37,839
via its natural archetypes its preferred

1777
00:59:44,230 --> 00:59:40,400
ways of unfolding that set

1778
00:59:47,430 --> 00:59:44,240
setting an intention i think

1779
00:59:49,430 --> 00:59:47,440
can influence the world

1780
00:59:50,950 --> 00:59:49,440
for the exact same reasons that moving

1781
00:59:53,670 --> 00:59:50,960
your arms can influence

1782
00:59:54,710 --> 00:59:53,680
the world our mental activity leaves a

1783
00:59:57,829 --> 00:59:54,720
footprint

1784
00:59:59,589 --> 00:59:57,839
in the world by having being here our

1785
01:00:02,230 --> 00:59:59,599
environment

1786
01:00:03,430 --> 01:00:02,240
is what it is or wouldn't have been if

1787
01:00:06,309 --> 01:00:03,440
we were not here

1788
01:00:07,829 --> 01:00:06,319
i mean to speak in physical terms in in

1789
01:00:09,670 --> 01:00:07,839
other words in in the language of

1790
01:00:12,470 --> 01:00:09,680
representations and images

1791
01:00:13,990 --> 01:00:12,480
we occupy a volume in space if i were to

1792
01:00:16,230 --> 01:00:14,000
suddenly disappear

1793
01:00:18,069 --> 01:00:16,240
air would rush into that volume of space

1794
01:00:19,190 --> 01:00:18,079
and probably create a sonic boom i don't

1795
01:00:21,190 --> 01:00:19,200
i don't know

1796
01:00:23,190 --> 01:00:21,200
it would make a thundering noise because

1797
01:00:23,910 --> 01:00:23,200
that's exactly what thunder is it's air

1798
01:00:26,710 --> 01:00:23,920
filling in

1799
01:00:28,549 --> 01:00:26,720
the vacuum of overheated air left by

1800
01:00:31,030 --> 01:00:28,559
lightning

1801
01:00:31,750 --> 01:00:31,040
so our very presence in the world

1802
01:00:34,390 --> 01:00:31,760
changes

1803
01:00:35,910 --> 01:00:34,400
the world and i think this is very

1804
01:00:37,349 --> 01:00:35,920
obvious when it comes to our physical

1805
01:00:38,470 --> 01:00:37,359
influence in the world by building a

1806
01:00:42,069 --> 01:00:38,480
house with our hands

1807
01:00:45,750 --> 01:00:42,079
by moving around but i think the same

1808
01:00:47,670 --> 01:00:45,760
type of influence um is plausible

1809
01:00:49,829 --> 01:00:47,680
when it comes to the deepest layers of

1810
01:00:51,030 --> 01:00:49,839
our mind which may not be as dissociated

1811
01:00:53,109 --> 01:00:51,040
as our ego is

1812
01:00:55,030 --> 01:00:53,119
in other words it may have more commerce

1813
01:00:57,589 --> 01:00:55,040
with the mentation around us

1814
01:00:58,789 --> 01:00:57,599
so if you set a deep intention through

1815
01:01:01,910 --> 01:00:58,799
prayer

1816
01:01:03,670 --> 01:01:01,920
i do think it is plausible that you may

1817
01:01:06,309 --> 01:01:03,680
get an effect

1818
01:01:08,950 --> 01:01:06,319
but not for the reasons you may think

1819
01:01:11,109 --> 01:01:08,960
you may get an effect

1820
01:01:13,430 --> 01:01:11,119
so it works as if but the mechanism is

1821
01:01:15,510 --> 01:01:13,440
exactly then yeah

1822
01:01:16,950 --> 01:01:15,520
maybe naive but maybe effective in the

1823
01:01:18,309 --> 01:01:16,960
sense that things work as if it were

1824
01:01:20,309 --> 01:01:18,319
true

1825
01:01:22,789 --> 01:01:20,319
where does morality fit into this and

1826
01:01:28,870 --> 01:01:26,789
i think purpose can be teleological

1827
01:01:30,870 --> 01:01:28,880
in other words purpose what we call

1828
01:01:32,470 --> 01:01:30,880
purpose may reflect a fundamental

1829
01:01:36,390 --> 01:01:32,480
archetype in nature

1830
01:01:38,470 --> 01:01:36,400
so it could be a natural archetype um

1831
01:01:40,710 --> 01:01:38,480
let me phrase it in a different way

1832
01:01:42,950 --> 01:01:40,720
self-knowledge i suspect

1833
01:01:45,910 --> 01:01:42,960
is a natural archetype in other words

1834
01:01:48,789 --> 01:01:45,920
there is an intrinsic drive

1835
01:01:50,309 --> 01:01:48,799
in mind including mind at large towards

1836
01:01:52,309 --> 01:01:50,319
self-knowledge

1837
01:01:54,069 --> 01:01:52,319
uh i think it's incredibly incredibly

1838
01:01:55,510 --> 01:01:54,079
plausible that this is the case because

1839
01:01:56,470 --> 01:01:55,520
it seems to be the case for every single

1840
01:02:00,630 --> 01:01:56,480
living

1841
01:02:03,510 --> 01:02:00,640
about ourselves what

1842
01:02:04,069 --> 01:02:03,520
are we we have this need to identify a

1843
01:02:05,910 --> 01:02:04,079
place

1844
01:02:08,549 --> 01:02:05,920
in this grand scheme of things for what

1845
01:02:10,710 --> 01:02:08,559
we are we care deeply about it

1846
01:02:11,910 --> 01:02:10,720
and raising our self-awareness has all

1847
01:02:15,109 --> 01:02:11,920
kinds of positive

1848
01:02:18,190 --> 01:02:15,119
effects so i do think

1849
01:02:20,390 --> 01:02:18,200
self-knowledge as purpose has a

1850
01:02:22,230 --> 01:02:20,400
teleological root it reflects a

1851
01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:22,240
fundamental archetype of nature

1852
01:02:25,270 --> 01:02:24,240
it exists because nature is what it is

1853
01:02:28,230 --> 01:02:25,280
by being what it

1854
01:02:30,069 --> 01:02:28,240
is it wants to know itself merely by

1855
01:02:34,069 --> 01:02:30,079
virtue of being what it is

1856
01:02:37,589 --> 01:02:34,079
now morals are a different story

1857
01:02:41,029 --> 01:02:37,599
i think morals are very important

1858
01:02:44,230 --> 01:02:41,039
to guide our social lives to make our

1859
01:02:46,150 --> 01:02:44,240
social lives function if in in a

1860
01:02:47,829 --> 01:02:46,160
complete moral vacuum

1861
01:02:49,589 --> 01:02:47,839
we would be completely dysfunctional

1862
01:02:51,349 --> 01:02:49,599
there would be no basis for cooperation

1863
01:02:51,990 --> 01:02:51,359
we'd be killing each other raping each

1864
01:02:53,349 --> 01:02:52,000
other

1865
01:02:55,430 --> 01:02:53,359
and there would be only chaos and

1866
01:02:58,470 --> 01:02:55,440
destruction and we would go nowhere now

1867
01:02:59,990 --> 01:02:58,480
none of us wants that if you look deeply

1868
01:03:01,109 --> 01:03:00,000
into yourself you see that even if you

1869
01:03:02,950 --> 01:03:01,119
think you want that no

1870
01:03:04,230 --> 01:03:02,960
you're just rebelling against something

1871
01:03:06,870 --> 01:03:04,240
else or you're angry

1872
01:03:08,789 --> 01:03:06,880
with yourself but deep deep deep inside

1873
01:03:11,109 --> 01:03:08,799
we all want some form of

1874
01:03:12,630 --> 01:03:11,119
functionality we want to go somewhere we

1875
01:03:15,109 --> 01:03:12,640
want to evolve in some sense

1876
01:03:16,230 --> 01:03:15,119
learn or find out something or express

1877
01:03:17,829 --> 01:03:16,240
something

1878
01:03:20,470 --> 01:03:17,839
and morals are important for that but i

1879
01:03:23,270 --> 01:03:20,480
don't think they are archetypal

1880
01:03:24,549 --> 01:03:23,280
i think morals are a product of an age

1881
01:03:26,390 --> 01:03:24,559
and a culture

1882
01:03:28,390 --> 01:03:26,400
in a sense they are an invention we

1883
01:03:30,390 --> 01:03:28,400
create them but we create them for very

1884
01:03:33,349 --> 01:03:30,400
good reasons very practical

1885
01:03:34,230 --> 01:03:33,359
reasons to make our social life

1886
01:03:36,870 --> 01:03:34,240
functional

1887
01:03:38,230 --> 01:03:36,880
but i don't think they reflect something

1888
01:03:39,510 --> 01:03:38,240
fundamental

1889
01:03:42,630 --> 01:03:39,520
in nature i think they're human

1890
01:03:45,029 --> 01:03:42,640
creations important ones

1891
01:03:46,150 --> 01:03:45,039
and just so you and also people watching

1892
01:03:49,029 --> 01:03:46,160
understand i'm not

1893
01:03:50,069 --> 01:03:49,039
an idealist i'm not a materialist i i

1894
01:03:52,549 --> 01:03:50,079
don't know what i am

1895
01:03:53,349 --> 01:03:52,559
i just say i'm a somewhat foolish

1896
01:03:56,309 --> 01:03:53,359
filmmaker

1897
01:03:56,870 --> 01:03:56,319
floating in a void unmoored and looking

1898
01:04:00,309 --> 01:03:56,880
for

1899
01:04:02,789 --> 01:04:00,319
anchorage so that's why yeah

1900
01:04:03,829 --> 01:04:02,799
well it's also destabilizing at the same

1901
01:04:06,630 --> 01:04:03,839
time

1902
01:04:07,910 --> 01:04:06,640
okay when i hear that you say well we

1903
01:04:09,510 --> 01:04:07,920
all want the same thing

1904
01:04:11,029 --> 01:04:09,520
and i don't think history shows that i

1905
01:04:13,670 --> 01:04:11,039
think that you may say well

1906
01:04:14,870 --> 01:04:13,680
unc in our deep deepest drives we all

1907
01:04:16,390 --> 01:04:14,880
want the same thing but that's somewhat

1908
01:04:16,710 --> 01:04:16,400
unfalsifiable because then if someone

1909
01:04:19,270 --> 01:04:16,720
says

1910
01:04:20,710 --> 01:04:19,280
and acts as if they like to murder and

1911
01:04:22,069 --> 01:04:20,720
they like like genghis god said to put

1912
01:04:24,069 --> 01:04:22,079
the head of his enemy on a stick

1913
01:04:26,150 --> 01:04:24,079
and rape the enemy's tribes that's my

1914
01:04:29,349 --> 01:04:26,160
idea of morality something like that no

1915
01:04:30,309 --> 01:04:29,359
that's not what they meant just briefly

1916
01:04:33,109 --> 01:04:30,319
to clarify

1917
01:04:33,910 --> 01:04:33,119
what i meant is that deep inside we want

1918
01:04:37,190 --> 01:04:33,920
we all want

1919
01:04:38,950 --> 01:04:37,200
some form of order but the form of order

1920
01:04:39,990 --> 01:04:38,960
that you may want may differ from mine

1921
01:04:43,430 --> 01:04:40,000
and we may go to war

1922
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:43,440
about it but none of us wants complete

1923
01:04:46,470 --> 01:04:44,480
inertia chaos

1924
01:04:47,990 --> 01:04:46,480
hitler didn't want it genji's khan

1925
01:04:50,470 --> 01:04:48,000
didn't want it

1926
01:04:52,150 --> 01:04:50,480
nobody ever wanted complete chaos they

1927
01:04:54,950 --> 01:04:52,160
just had different

1928
01:04:56,630 --> 01:04:54,960
notions about the order they did want so

1929
01:04:59,670 --> 01:04:56,640
what i meant is

1930
01:05:00,950 --> 01:04:59,680
we all want some form of order different

1931
01:05:03,750 --> 01:05:00,960
forms but we all want

1932
01:05:05,109 --> 01:05:03,760
some form of order none of us wants

1933
01:05:07,910 --> 01:05:05,119
total and complete

1934
01:05:09,349 --> 01:05:07,920
chaos yeah to me that's another way of

1935
01:05:10,789 --> 01:05:09,359
stating that we all want something

1936
01:05:12,390 --> 01:05:10,799
because then to say it's a thing means

1937
01:05:13,670 --> 01:05:12,400
that it's discernible which means it has

1938
01:05:15,270 --> 01:05:13,680
a boundary which means there's some

1939
01:05:16,150 --> 01:05:15,280
order to it but then i don't know if

1940
01:05:17,270 --> 01:05:16,160
that's saying much

1941
01:05:18,950 --> 01:05:17,280
because it's like saying we want

1942
01:05:20,549 --> 01:05:18,960
something it could be anything and yes

1943
01:05:22,390 --> 01:05:20,559
it can conflict but you do agree that

1944
01:05:23,990 --> 01:05:22,400
you want something yes we can both agree

1945
01:05:26,069 --> 01:05:24,000
we do want something

1946
01:05:28,470 --> 01:05:26,079
it doesn't say much kurt but it does

1947
01:05:29,109 --> 01:05:28,480
explain the emergence of morals it's

1948
01:05:31,829 --> 01:05:29,119
enough

1949
01:05:32,710 --> 01:05:31,839
to explain why morals arise at all

1950
01:05:34,549 --> 01:05:32,720
because

1951
01:05:37,349 --> 01:05:34,559
some order and the reflection of that

1952
01:05:40,710 --> 01:05:37,359
want is what we enshrine in a moral code

1953
01:05:43,109 --> 01:05:40,720
okay okay so i can see how morals

1954
01:05:44,309 --> 01:05:43,119
could have developed evolutionarily and

1955
01:05:45,670 --> 01:05:44,319
that they can conflict

1956
01:05:47,270 --> 01:05:45,680
what i was wondering is if there's a

1957
01:05:49,029 --> 01:05:47,280
divine order or if there's some

1958
01:05:50,870 --> 01:05:49,039
objective morality you seem to say

1959
01:05:52,230 --> 01:05:50,880
well maybe not but if we want to

1960
01:05:54,309 --> 01:05:52,240
function together then

1961
01:05:55,829 --> 01:05:54,319
that's akin to a dance and we call that

1962
01:05:57,589 --> 01:05:55,839
dance morality

1963
01:05:59,109 --> 01:05:57,599
there is certainly a divine order

1964
01:06:00,870 --> 01:05:59,119
because if there weren't there would

1965
01:06:02,549 --> 01:06:00,880
have been no successful science

1966
01:06:04,390 --> 01:06:02,559
there is there are patterns of

1967
01:06:06,470 --> 01:06:04,400
regularity in nature

1968
01:06:08,150 --> 01:06:06,480
that we can capture with mathematics and

1969
01:06:09,589 --> 01:06:08,160
which help us to predict things with

1970
01:06:12,069 --> 01:06:09,599
extraordinary precision

1971
01:06:13,029 --> 01:06:12,079
so there is natural order absolutely i

1972
01:06:14,950 --> 01:06:13,039
think

1973
01:06:16,870 --> 01:06:14,960
this is archetypal order it is what it

1974
01:06:20,309 --> 01:06:16,880
is because nature is what it is

1975
01:06:23,750 --> 01:06:20,319
um but moral order

1976
01:06:24,549 --> 01:06:23,760
is a specific type of order that seems

1977
01:06:28,309 --> 01:06:24,559
to govern

1978
01:06:29,190 --> 01:06:28,319
behavior now i haven't i have not ever

1979
01:06:32,870 --> 01:06:29,200
been able to

1980
01:06:37,349 --> 01:06:32,880
identify a archetypal moral order

1981
01:06:39,510 --> 01:06:37,359
in nature killer whales orcas

1982
01:06:40,789 --> 01:06:39,520
they fool around with sea lions before

1983
01:06:44,230 --> 01:06:40,799
eating them so

1984
01:06:46,230 --> 01:06:44,240
torture for the sake of play chimpanzees

1985
01:06:50,230 --> 01:06:46,240
can organize gangs to murder order

1986
01:06:54,069 --> 01:06:53,190
nature is a blood bath your backyard is

1987
01:06:57,270 --> 01:06:54,079
a blood bath

1988
01:06:58,870 --> 01:06:57,280
and cutting earthworms in pieces while

1989
01:07:02,230 --> 01:06:58,880
they are still alive

1990
01:07:05,349 --> 01:07:02,240
i mean do you see a

1991
01:07:07,430 --> 01:07:05,359
moral code embedded in nature i don't i

1992
01:07:09,109 --> 01:07:07,440
see order in nature but it's not of a

1993
01:07:12,950 --> 01:07:09,119
moral quality

1994
01:07:13,670 --> 01:07:12,960
um it's much more fundamental than that

1995
01:07:16,870 --> 01:07:13,680
it's a much

1996
01:07:18,710 --> 01:07:16,880
lower floor of the building it's much

1997
01:07:21,109 --> 01:07:18,720
closer to the foundations

1998
01:07:23,270 --> 01:07:21,119
and i i wouldn't attribute the word

1999
01:07:24,150 --> 01:07:23,280
morality to that in any sense that the

2000
01:07:27,029 --> 01:07:24,160
word is used

2001
01:07:28,870 --> 01:07:27,039
in conversation i think morality what we

2002
01:07:29,910 --> 01:07:28,880
mean by it is something that we create

2003
01:07:32,630 --> 01:07:29,920
ourselves

2004
01:07:33,829 --> 01:07:32,640
in order to facilitate social

2005
01:07:36,069 --> 01:07:33,839
cooperation

2006
01:07:37,430 --> 01:07:36,079
for the achievement of our preferred

2007
01:07:39,349 --> 01:07:37,440
form of order

2008
01:07:41,109 --> 01:07:39,359
now different people may have different

2009
01:07:42,789 --> 01:07:41,119
preferred forms of order that's why

2010
01:07:44,710 --> 01:07:42,799
different cultures at different times

2011
01:07:46,230 --> 01:07:44,720
have different moral codes

2012
01:07:48,470 --> 01:07:46,240
because they need to organize their

2013
01:07:49,029 --> 01:07:48,480
behavior along different lines in order

2014
01:07:51,750 --> 01:07:49,039
to achieve

2015
01:07:52,630 --> 01:07:51,760
their particular sense of the order that

2016
01:07:54,870 --> 01:07:52,640
is desired

2017
01:07:55,750 --> 01:07:54,880
there is always some desired order

2018
01:07:58,470 --> 01:07:55,760
enshrined

2019
01:07:59,829 --> 01:07:58,480
in a given moral code but that order and

2020
01:08:01,510 --> 01:07:59,839
the moral code differ

2021
01:08:04,150 --> 01:08:01,520
across time and space so i don't see

2022
01:08:06,789 --> 01:08:04,160
them as fundamental i see them as

2023
01:08:07,829 --> 01:08:06,799
practical pragmatic very useful very

2024
01:08:10,630 --> 01:08:07,839
important

2025
01:08:11,910 --> 01:08:10,640
human creations nature itself has order

2026
01:08:14,309 --> 01:08:11,920
but it's not moral

2027
01:08:16,870 --> 01:08:14,319
it's a much more raw form of order much

2028
01:08:18,390 --> 01:08:16,880
more fundamental

2029
01:08:19,910 --> 01:08:18,400
bernardo i don't know about you but i

2030
01:08:20,870 --> 01:08:19,920
gain a lot of insight from watching

2031
01:08:22,309 --> 01:08:20,880
intellectuals

2032
01:08:24,149 --> 01:08:22,319
talk about one another comparing

2033
01:08:24,950 --> 01:08:24,159
contrasting it's almost like a battle of

2034
01:08:27,110 --> 01:08:24,960
the gods

2035
01:08:28,789 --> 01:08:27,120
so i would like you to comment i have

2036
01:08:32,149 --> 01:08:28,799
quite a few intellectuals

2037
01:08:34,309 --> 01:08:32,159
written down yoshibak dennett

2038
01:08:35,990 --> 01:08:34,319
jordan peterson daniel hofstetter

2039
01:08:38,390 --> 01:08:36,000
hoffman ray kurzweil even

2040
01:08:39,669 --> 01:08:38,400
so let's just stick with yoshibok for

2041
01:08:41,590 --> 01:08:39,679
now how do you

2042
01:08:42,709 --> 01:08:41,600
view his theory of consciousness where

2043
01:08:45,749 --> 01:08:42,719
do you see him

2044
01:08:48,789 --> 01:08:45,759
being mistaken or misguided um

2045
01:08:49,510 --> 01:08:48,799
i'm not sure the name is familiar i have

2046
01:08:52,870 --> 01:08:49,520
heard the name

2047
01:08:54,470 --> 01:08:52,880
but i don't really know much

2048
01:08:57,030 --> 01:08:54,480
okay well he would say like and i'm

2049
01:08:57,749 --> 01:08:57,040
paraphrasing that computers can be

2050
01:09:00,870 --> 01:08:57,759
conscious

2051
01:09:03,510 --> 01:09:00,880
simulation

2052
01:09:04,950 --> 01:09:03,520
so consciousness it's we have it

2053
01:09:05,990 --> 01:09:04,960
backwards we don't have that you can't

2054
01:09:08,229 --> 01:09:06,000
simulate consciousness

2055
01:09:09,990 --> 01:09:08,239
we have that only a simulation can be

2056
01:09:11,749 --> 01:09:10,000
conscious and what consciousness

2057
01:09:13,510 --> 01:09:11,759
is is the computer or whatever

2058
01:09:15,510 --> 01:09:13,520
computational infrastructure

2059
01:09:16,950 --> 01:09:15,520
underlies this universe in his model its

2060
01:09:17,749 --> 01:09:16,960
computation like wolfram would say its

2061
01:09:20,309 --> 01:09:17,759
computation

2062
01:09:22,309 --> 01:09:20,319
at its core whatever it is it's then

2063
01:09:24,309 --> 01:09:22,319
making models and telling stories

2064
01:09:26,550 --> 01:09:24,319
and what we experience as consciousness

2065
01:09:28,070 --> 01:09:26,560
is this machine telling a story

2066
01:09:30,709 --> 01:09:28,080
simulating what would it be like if so

2067
01:09:32,630 --> 01:09:30,719
and so happened

2068
01:09:33,910 --> 01:09:32,640
look i'll criticize what you described i

2069
01:09:35,349 --> 01:09:33,920
don't know whether you have been

2070
01:09:37,510 --> 01:09:35,359
accurate or complete probably

2071
01:09:39,110 --> 01:09:37,520
so i cannot pass a judgment uh giving a

2072
01:09:41,269 --> 01:09:39,120
personal description

2073
01:09:43,349 --> 01:09:41,279
the name joshua he's familiar there was

2074
01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:43,359
a guy who sort of trolled me a few years

2075
01:09:46,550 --> 01:09:44,400
ago

2076
01:09:48,709 --> 01:09:46,560
on my website i'm probably not the same

2077
01:09:50,950 --> 01:09:48,719
guy but the name is familiar

2078
01:09:52,709 --> 01:09:50,960
i would say the following look i have a

2079
01:09:54,709 --> 01:09:52,719
friend who calls this kind of position

2080
01:09:58,550 --> 01:09:54,719
the pinocchio theories of consciousness

2081
01:10:01,110 --> 01:09:58,560
like consciousness is pinocchio's nose

2082
01:10:02,390 --> 01:10:01,120
i think this is at the same level as

2083
01:10:04,470 --> 01:10:02,400
saying that consciousness

2084
01:10:05,830 --> 01:10:04,480
is the involuntary wiggling of my left

2085
01:10:09,110 --> 01:10:05,840
big toe

2086
01:10:09,669 --> 01:10:09,120
it's completely arbitrary because it

2087
01:10:12,550 --> 01:10:09,679
doesn't

2088
01:10:13,030 --> 01:10:12,560
link the word back to what it we know it

2089
01:10:15,510 --> 01:10:13,040
to be

2090
01:10:17,590 --> 01:10:15,520
consciousness is experience so to say

2091
01:10:19,110 --> 01:10:17,600
that consciousness is a simulation is

2092
01:10:20,630 --> 01:10:19,120
just as arbitrary as to say that

2093
01:10:21,510 --> 01:10:20,640
consciousness is the wiggling of my

2094
01:10:24,310 --> 01:10:21,520
pinky

2095
01:10:26,149 --> 01:10:24,320
it not say whatever you want but it

2096
01:10:27,990 --> 01:10:26,159
doesn't have any meaning

2097
01:10:30,229 --> 01:10:28,000
it's a syntactically well-formed

2098
01:10:30,709 --> 01:10:30,239
statement that that is completely devoid

2099
01:10:34,470 --> 01:10:30,719
of

2100
01:10:37,669 --> 01:10:34,480
semantic foundation um

2101
01:10:40,070 --> 01:10:37,679
look because we've made some

2102
01:10:42,149 --> 01:10:40,080
fatal errors in our thinking we take

2103
01:10:44,630 --> 01:10:42,159
images to be the thing in itself

2104
01:10:45,830 --> 01:10:44,640
and we replace reality with descriptions

2105
01:10:48,310 --> 01:10:45,840
we are forced

2106
01:10:50,630 --> 01:10:48,320
into reductions and reductions to

2107
01:10:53,510 --> 01:10:50,640
absurdity reduction at absurdum

2108
01:10:55,270 --> 01:10:53,520
um but we don't want to acknowledge that

2109
01:10:56,149 --> 01:10:55,280
we've reduced our thinking to an

2110
01:10:58,630 --> 01:10:56,159
absurdity

2111
01:11:01,110 --> 01:10:58,640
so we label it a problem and then we

2112
01:11:01,830 --> 01:11:01,120
give ourselves the freedom to completely

2113
01:11:04,310 --> 01:11:01,840
abandon

2114
01:11:05,510 --> 01:11:04,320
our sense of plausibility when it comes

2115
01:11:07,350 --> 01:11:05,520
to consciousness

2116
01:11:10,149 --> 01:11:07,360
a sense of plausibility we take very

2117
01:11:13,830 --> 01:11:10,159
seriously in every other situation

2118
01:11:16,149 --> 01:11:13,840
for instance i can simulate

2119
01:11:17,350 --> 01:11:16,159
kidney function on my computer

2120
01:11:20,550 --> 01:11:17,360
accurately

2121
01:11:22,310 --> 01:11:20,560
down to the molecular level

2122
01:11:24,310 --> 01:11:22,320
but that doesn't mean that my computer

2123
01:11:26,310 --> 01:11:24,320
will pee on my desk because we know that

2124
01:11:27,669 --> 01:11:26,320
the simulation of the phenomenon doesn't

2125
01:11:30,709 --> 01:11:27,679
matter how accurate

2126
01:11:33,669 --> 01:11:30,719
is not the phenomenon but people who

2127
01:11:35,430 --> 01:11:33,679
think we can create sentient computers

2128
01:11:37,430 --> 01:11:35,440
they think that by simulating the

2129
01:11:38,550 --> 01:11:37,440
particular patterns of information flow

2130
01:11:40,070 --> 01:11:38,560
in the human brain

2131
01:11:42,390 --> 01:11:40,080
they can create a machine that is

2132
01:11:45,270 --> 01:11:42,400
conscious well that's entirely

2133
01:11:47,189 --> 01:11:45,280
strictly equivalent to saying that the

2134
01:11:49,510 --> 01:11:47,199
computer simulation of kidney function

2135
01:11:53,590 --> 01:11:49,520
can pee on one's desk

2136
01:11:56,630 --> 01:11:53,600
it's absurd it's very very sophisticated

2137
01:11:58,630 --> 01:11:56,640
stupidity and we don't see that

2138
01:12:00,950 --> 01:11:58,640
because we backed ourselves into a

2139
01:12:02,149 --> 01:12:00,960
corner of absurdity by making those

2140
01:12:04,470 --> 01:12:02,159
initially

2141
01:12:05,189 --> 01:12:04,480
wrong postulates about the nature of

2142
01:12:07,270 --> 01:12:05,199
reality

2143
01:12:09,590 --> 01:12:07,280
mistaking representation for the thing

2144
01:12:12,550 --> 01:12:09,600
in itself and mistaken reality for a

2145
01:12:13,350 --> 01:12:12,560
mistake and description for reality so

2146
01:12:15,990 --> 01:12:13,360
since we are

2147
01:12:17,590 --> 01:12:16,000
in absurd territory already anyway and

2148
01:12:19,990 --> 01:12:17,600
we don't want to admit it we give

2149
01:12:23,189 --> 01:12:20,000
ourselves them the freedom to conjure up

2150
01:12:26,149 --> 01:12:23,199
this ridiculously silly stories

2151
01:12:26,709 --> 01:12:26,159
that are peddled by ray kurzweil for

2152
01:12:28,470 --> 01:12:26,719
instance

2153
01:12:30,310 --> 01:12:28,480
these are the pinocchio theories of

2154
01:12:32,310 --> 01:12:30,320
consciousness i think mine is better

2155
01:12:34,149 --> 01:12:32,320
consciousness is the wiggling of my left

2156
01:12:36,790 --> 01:12:34,159
big toe

2157
01:12:38,310 --> 01:12:36,800
okay so let's let's not straw man any of

2158
01:12:39,510 --> 01:12:38,320
the people who believe in the illusory

2159
01:12:42,630 --> 01:12:39,520
nature of consciousness

2160
01:12:44,390 --> 01:12:42,640
i for one haven't heard or grasped a

2161
01:12:46,070 --> 01:12:44,400
coherent theory that says that

2162
01:12:49,189 --> 01:12:46,080
consciousness is an illusion

2163
01:12:49,990 --> 01:12:49,199
and so for me when someone says well do

2164
01:12:51,910 --> 01:12:50,000
you believe consciousness

2165
01:12:53,669 --> 01:12:51,920
is an illusion i can't say no nor can i

2166
01:12:54,070 --> 01:12:53,679
say yes because i imagine that if i was

2167
01:12:57,270 --> 01:12:54,080
to

2168
01:12:58,310 --> 01:12:57,280
let's say that he would say that's not

2169
01:13:00,390 --> 01:12:58,320
what i believe at all

2170
01:13:01,990 --> 01:13:00,400
so if you don't mind helping me out and

2171
01:13:02,310 --> 01:13:02,000
explaining what do people mean when they

2172
01:13:03,990 --> 01:13:02,320
say

2173
01:13:05,590 --> 01:13:04,000
like daniel dead in particular because

2174
01:13:06,709 --> 01:13:05,600
i'm sure they're variants of this so

2175
01:13:08,149 --> 01:13:06,719
let's pick dennis

2176
01:13:09,830 --> 01:13:08,159
what do you what does he mean when he

2177
01:13:11,990 --> 01:13:09,840
says consciousness is an illusion

2178
01:13:13,669 --> 01:13:12,000
and separates yourself from that this is

2179
01:13:15,590 --> 01:13:13,679
rich territory so

2180
01:13:16,950 --> 01:13:15,600
let me try to get my bearings here to

2181
01:13:21,030 --> 01:13:16,960
operate

2182
01:13:25,990 --> 01:13:23,590
you could say that when people claim

2183
01:13:27,990 --> 01:13:26,000
that consciousness is an illusion

2184
01:13:31,110 --> 01:13:28,000
what they mean is that consciousness is

2185
01:13:34,149 --> 01:13:31,120
not what it seems to be

2186
01:13:36,229 --> 01:13:34,159
that is coherent but it does not solve

2187
01:13:37,350 --> 01:13:36,239
the hard problem of consciousness

2188
01:13:39,510 --> 01:13:37,360
because the heart problem of

2189
01:13:42,709 --> 01:13:39,520
consciousness is not what we think

2190
01:13:43,030 --> 01:13:42,719
consciousness is it's about the fact

2191
01:13:46,470 --> 01:13:43,040
that

2192
01:13:48,550 --> 01:13:46,480
there is experience at all so by saying

2193
01:13:49,030 --> 01:13:48,560
that consciousness is not what it seems

2194
01:13:51,030 --> 01:13:49,040
to be

2195
01:13:52,870 --> 01:13:51,040
doesn't solve the heart problem because

2196
01:13:55,189 --> 01:13:52,880
even if it is something else

2197
01:13:57,830 --> 01:13:55,199
the fact that you think about it the

2198
01:13:59,669 --> 01:13:57,840
fact that you experience something

2199
01:14:02,149 --> 01:13:59,679
is already an instance of that thing

2200
01:14:05,510 --> 01:14:02,159
that you can't explain

2201
01:14:06,870 --> 01:14:05,520
so the proponents of the consciousness

2202
01:14:10,470 --> 01:14:06,880
as an illusion theory

2203
01:14:13,510 --> 01:14:10,480
they are either incoherent

2204
01:14:15,350 --> 01:14:13,520
or they are irrelevant

2205
01:14:17,110 --> 01:14:15,360
because if you say consciousness is an

2206
01:14:19,030 --> 01:14:17,120
illusion because it this is not what it

2207
01:14:20,390 --> 01:14:19,040
seems to be well you're a coherent

2208
01:14:22,149 --> 01:14:20,400
but you're not solving the heart problem

2209
01:14:23,750 --> 01:14:22,159
actually you're not doing anything

2210
01:14:26,070 --> 01:14:23,760
at best you're making a statement

2211
01:14:27,990 --> 01:14:26,080
related to cognitive psychology

2212
01:14:30,470 --> 01:14:28,000
we think wrongly about a whole number of

2213
01:14:31,830 --> 01:14:30,480
things we think we see the entire visual

2214
01:14:33,830 --> 01:14:31,840
field in high resolution

2215
01:14:35,590 --> 01:14:33,840
or in fact we only see the very center

2216
01:14:37,110 --> 01:14:35,600
of the visual field in high resolution

2217
01:14:38,950 --> 01:14:37,120
and because we are always moving our

2218
01:14:40,709 --> 01:14:38,960
eyes scanning the visual field to create

2219
01:14:42,790 --> 01:14:40,719
the solution that it's in high res

2220
01:14:44,229 --> 01:14:42,800
well there is that illusion could we be

2221
01:14:46,390 --> 01:14:44,239
wrong in our

2222
01:14:47,590 --> 01:14:46,400
explanations about what consciousness

2223
01:14:49,430 --> 01:14:47,600
actually entails

2224
01:14:51,189 --> 01:14:49,440
well we very well could be wrong about

2225
01:14:53,590 --> 01:14:51,199
that but it doesn't matter

2226
01:14:55,669 --> 01:14:53,600
because if there is any experience

2227
01:14:57,510 --> 01:14:55,679
regardless of the story we tell about it

2228
01:15:00,070 --> 01:14:57,520
if there is any experience at all

2229
01:15:00,870 --> 01:15:00,080
then we have the heart problem so they

2230
01:15:04,070 --> 01:15:00,880
are either

2231
01:15:04,470 --> 01:15:04,080
incoherent absurdly incoherent because

2232
01:15:06,229 --> 01:15:04,480
you know

2233
01:15:07,830 --> 01:15:06,239
to say that consciousness is an illusion

2234
01:15:10,390 --> 01:15:07,840
in the sense that it doesn't exist

2235
01:15:10,950 --> 01:15:10,400
is directly incoherent because it's the

2236
01:15:13,910 --> 01:15:10,960
only

2237
01:15:14,709 --> 01:15:13,920
instance of an illusion in which the

2238
01:15:17,990 --> 01:15:14,719
illusion

2239
01:15:20,390 --> 01:15:18,000
itself is already an instance of that

2240
01:15:23,189 --> 01:15:20,400
which you're trying to say doesn't exist

2241
01:15:24,149 --> 01:15:23,199
because if you're deluded or eluded

2242
01:15:27,750 --> 01:15:24,159
about something

2243
01:15:30,229 --> 01:15:27,760
that very illusion is an experience

2244
01:15:31,270 --> 01:15:30,239
an illusion happens in consciousness so

2245
01:15:33,110 --> 01:15:31,280
if you're trying to say that

2246
01:15:34,149 --> 01:15:33,120
consciousness doesn't exist because it's

2247
01:15:36,630 --> 01:15:34,159
an illusion you're

2248
01:15:37,669 --> 01:15:36,640
flagrantly incoherent and if you're

2249
01:15:37,990 --> 01:15:37,679
trying to say that it's an illusion

2250
01:15:39,830 --> 01:15:38,000
because

2251
01:15:41,750 --> 01:15:39,840
it doesn't seem what it seems it is not

2252
01:15:44,070 --> 01:15:41,760
what it seems to be then fine you're not

2253
01:15:46,550 --> 01:15:44,080
incoherent but you're irrelevant

2254
01:15:47,270 --> 01:15:46,560
you're not contributing at all uh to the

2255
01:15:50,470 --> 01:15:47,280
problem

2256
01:15:51,990 --> 01:15:50,480
and now if you press then it on that and

2257
01:15:54,310 --> 01:15:52,000
and this is not even an opinion it's

2258
01:15:56,550 --> 01:15:54,320
well known he is slippery

2259
01:15:57,830 --> 01:15:56,560
he will never give you a final answer so

2260
01:15:59,590 --> 01:15:57,840
what do you think his motivation is for

2261
01:16:00,149 --> 01:15:59,600
that do you think it's nefarious or that

2262
01:16:02,790 --> 01:16:00,159
he's just

2263
01:16:03,590 --> 01:16:02,800
simply misunderstanding something no i

2264
01:16:07,110 --> 01:16:03,600
don't

2265
01:16:09,750 --> 01:16:07,120
think he truly believes

2266
01:16:10,390 --> 01:16:09,760
what he's saying and what he believes is

2267
01:16:14,070 --> 01:16:10,400
that

2268
01:16:15,030 --> 01:16:14,080
would just make the heart problem

2269
01:16:17,350 --> 01:16:15,040
disappear

2270
01:16:19,030 --> 01:16:17,360
and he's trying to suggest a direction

2271
01:16:20,630 --> 01:16:19,040
where to look for that something

2272
01:16:22,390 --> 01:16:20,640
but he hasn't found it and he's the

2273
01:16:24,149 --> 01:16:22,400
first to admit that he hasn't quite

2274
01:16:26,070 --> 01:16:24,159
pinned it down he's just suggesting

2275
01:16:28,070 --> 01:16:26,080
direction well i would argue to you that

2276
01:16:29,750 --> 01:16:28,080
he's walking in a hall of mirrors

2277
01:16:31,669 --> 01:16:29,760
uh that's something he's looking for it

2278
01:16:33,669 --> 01:16:31,679
doesn't exist it's not there

2279
01:16:34,950 --> 01:16:33,679
but because he doesn't want to part with

2280
01:16:37,189 --> 01:16:34,960
a certain world view

2281
01:16:39,030 --> 01:16:37,199
he wants to keep space open for it to

2282
01:16:39,510 --> 01:16:39,040
keep the possibility open that one day

2283
01:16:43,510 --> 01:16:39,520
we may

2284
01:16:46,630 --> 01:16:43,520
it's just human

2285
01:16:49,830 --> 01:16:46,640
it's a human foolishness and

2286
01:16:52,630 --> 01:16:49,840
and human committed human commitment

2287
01:16:53,910 --> 01:16:52,640
to the stories with which we identify

2288
01:16:55,750 --> 01:16:53,920
ourselves publicly

2289
01:16:57,350 --> 01:16:55,760
it's very hard when you're publicly

2290
01:16:59,189 --> 01:16:57,360
identified with a narrative it's very

2291
01:17:01,110 --> 01:16:59,199
hard to 30 years later

2292
01:17:02,870 --> 01:17:01,120
when your life has been lived already to

2293
01:17:04,790 --> 01:17:02,880
say well i was a fool

2294
01:17:06,870 --> 01:17:04,800
and that was wrong because then you're

2295
01:17:09,030 --> 01:17:06,880
telling your own ego i wasted my life

2296
01:17:11,350 --> 01:17:09,040
and no ego wants that and there is all

2297
01:17:13,430 --> 01:17:11,360
kinds of psychological subterfuges

2298
01:17:14,550 --> 01:17:13,440
ego defense mechanisms with the

2299
01:17:17,110 --> 01:17:14,560
technical name

2300
01:17:18,950 --> 01:17:17,120
in which you will trick yourself into

2301
01:17:20,229 --> 01:17:18,960
not confronting that and keeping the

2302
01:17:22,070 --> 01:17:20,239
possibility open

2303
01:17:23,590 --> 01:17:22,080
for that which you committed your entire

2304
01:17:27,430 --> 01:17:23,600
life to

2305
01:17:28,790 --> 01:17:27,440
and that's why true revolutions only

2306
01:17:30,870 --> 01:17:28,800
happen

2307
01:17:32,390 --> 01:17:30,880
in the hands of younger people who are

2308
01:17:34,550 --> 01:17:32,400
not already committed

2309
01:17:35,910 --> 01:17:34,560
and who are truly more open-minded and

2310
01:17:37,910 --> 01:17:35,920
are not plagued by this

2311
01:17:39,590 --> 01:17:37,920
autonomous psychological mechanisms that

2312
01:17:41,510 --> 01:17:39,600
take her eyes off the ball so do you

2313
01:17:43,270 --> 01:17:41,520
believe richard dawkins when he says

2314
01:17:44,870 --> 01:17:43,280
well one of the best stories of my life

2315
01:17:45,590 --> 01:17:44,880
was when someone pointed out to me why i

2316
01:17:47,110 --> 01:17:45,600
was wrong

2317
01:17:49,350 --> 01:17:47,120
or pointed out this professor and then

2318
01:17:51,510 --> 01:17:49,360
that professor who had worked on that

2319
01:17:53,350 --> 01:17:51,520
particular theory for 15 years said

2320
01:17:54,709 --> 01:17:53,360
thank you i appreciate you telling me

2321
01:17:56,950 --> 01:17:54,719
that i was wrong and now i can abandon

2322
01:17:59,510 --> 01:17:56,960
that and he was saying that as a

2323
01:18:00,070 --> 01:17:59,520
as a virtue so do you think that richard

2324
01:18:01,830 --> 01:18:00,080
dawkins

2325
01:18:03,669 --> 01:18:01,840
and people like him who are materialists

2326
01:18:06,229 --> 01:18:03,679
are in a sense virtue signaling

2327
01:18:07,750 --> 01:18:06,239
about their willingness to abandon their

2328
01:18:08,709 --> 01:18:07,760
preconceived notions even if it's been

2329
01:18:10,070 --> 01:18:08,719
around for 20 years

2330
01:18:11,430 --> 01:18:10,080
you see it as like no no you should

2331
01:18:13,669 --> 01:18:11,440
abandon this preconceived notion that

2332
01:18:16,149 --> 01:18:13,679
goes back 200 years

2333
01:18:17,270 --> 01:18:16,159
i think when it comes to what i would

2334
01:18:19,830 --> 01:18:17,280
call small theories

2335
01:18:21,910 --> 01:18:19,840
things that we are not fully invested in

2336
01:18:23,510 --> 01:18:21,920
if somebody proves us wrong it's truly

2337
01:18:24,550 --> 01:18:23,520
welcomed it happens all the time in

2338
01:18:27,510 --> 01:18:24,560
science

2339
01:18:29,189 --> 01:18:27,520
but i think when you have committed your

2340
01:18:31,750 --> 01:18:29,199
your own

2341
01:18:33,990 --> 01:18:31,760
self to a certain perspective and you

2342
01:18:35,910 --> 01:18:34,000
have invested your life and career in it

2343
01:18:37,350 --> 01:18:35,920
and you're recognized as the very face

2344
01:18:41,750 --> 01:18:37,360
of that position

2345
01:18:44,950 --> 01:18:41,760
uh i don't think anybody not even me

2346
01:18:47,669 --> 01:18:44,960
would be truly happy to be proven

2347
01:18:49,110 --> 01:18:47,679
wrong i think it's a it's an egoic

2348
01:18:51,110 --> 01:18:49,120
catastrophe

2349
01:18:52,229 --> 01:18:51,120
it's something that will lend you in a

2350
01:18:54,790 --> 01:18:52,239
therapist's room

2351
01:18:56,550 --> 01:18:54,800
in no time if you're open-minded and

2352
01:18:57,430 --> 01:18:56,560
will lead you to drugs and suicide if

2353
01:19:00,630 --> 01:18:57,440
you're not

2354
01:19:01,990 --> 01:19:00,640
so uh i i i think that that's the

2355
01:19:04,390 --> 01:19:02,000
self-image

2356
01:19:05,510 --> 01:19:04,400
uh dawkins has it's what he wants to

2357
01:19:09,189 --> 01:19:05,520
believe

2358
01:19:11,110 --> 01:19:09,199
about himself but if the theory in

2359
01:19:13,430 --> 01:19:11,120
question is not a small theory but

2360
01:19:14,630 --> 01:19:13,440
the metaphysical theory of materialism

2361
01:19:17,189 --> 01:19:14,640
then i don't think

2362
01:19:18,790 --> 01:19:17,199
he is being honest to himself he may be

2363
01:19:20,550 --> 01:19:18,800
honest in the sense that this is what he

2364
01:19:23,510 --> 01:19:20,560
actually thinks about himself

2365
01:19:24,870 --> 01:19:23,520
but i think he's deluded as most of us

2366
01:19:27,669 --> 01:19:24,880
are about our own

2367
01:19:28,630 --> 01:19:27,679
inner psychological dynamics so he's

2368
01:19:30,390 --> 01:19:28,640
pretending to be

2369
01:19:31,910 --> 01:19:30,400
infinitely malleable but he's saying

2370
01:19:33,750 --> 01:19:31,920
well you can trim the edges but

2371
01:19:35,830 --> 01:19:33,760
don't cut me off at the roof i don't

2372
01:19:37,910 --> 01:19:35,840
think he's being malicious about this i

2373
01:19:39,830 --> 01:19:37,920
think he himself believes this

2374
01:19:41,750 --> 01:19:39,840
about himself so he's not being

2375
01:19:42,229 --> 01:19:41,760
dishonest in a malicious way but i think

2376
01:19:44,310 --> 01:19:42,239
he

2377
01:19:45,270 --> 01:19:44,320
may be deceiving himself if this is

2378
01:19:47,430 --> 01:19:45,280
indeed what he said

2379
01:19:49,270 --> 01:19:47,440
yeah i see okay let's talk about douglas

2380
01:19:49,990 --> 01:19:49,280
hofstetter who has a brilliant brilliant

2381
01:19:51,669 --> 01:19:50,000
book i think it's

2382
01:19:53,590 --> 01:19:51,679
both mine and yours favorite books or at

2383
01:20:00,630 --> 01:19:53,600
least one of them and there are only a

2384
01:20:04,070 --> 01:20:02,390
yeah and then there's one more that you

2385
01:20:06,550 --> 01:20:04,080
should check out called

2386
01:20:07,510 --> 01:20:06,560
meta magical fema's as well these ones

2387
01:20:09,590 --> 01:20:07,520
haven't read yet

2388
01:20:11,750 --> 01:20:09,600
yeah it's they're full of essays that

2389
01:20:12,550 --> 01:20:11,760
are that are more digestible than girdle

2390
01:20:14,950 --> 01:20:12,560
escher rock

2391
01:20:16,550 --> 01:20:14,960
so what's douglas hofstetter's view on

2392
01:20:17,110 --> 01:20:16,560
consciousness how does it arise in his

2393
01:20:19,510 --> 01:20:17,120
view

2394
01:20:21,110 --> 01:20:19,520
and then why do you think that's

2395
01:20:24,390 --> 01:20:21,120
incorrect what are the problems with it

2396
01:20:27,270 --> 01:20:24,400
okay look let me first sing some praises

2397
01:20:28,310 --> 01:20:27,280
to douglas of slaughter that book by him

2398
01:20:31,669 --> 01:20:28,320
godo asherbah

2399
01:20:34,070 --> 01:20:31,679
is a monumental achievement

2400
01:20:35,030 --> 01:20:34,080
of human intellect it's a book to be

2401
01:20:38,310 --> 01:20:35,040
literally

2402
01:20:38,950 --> 01:20:38,320
in awe off and he what wrote that

2403
01:20:41,590 --> 01:20:38,960
apparently

2404
01:20:42,870 --> 01:20:41,600
most of it when he was like 27. yeah but

2405
01:20:44,950 --> 01:20:42,880
that's usually the case

2406
01:20:47,030 --> 01:20:44,960
yeah when we are at our peak which

2407
01:20:48,310 --> 01:20:47,040
happens very early on we peak very early

2408
01:20:50,629 --> 01:20:48,320
when it comes to that kind of

2409
01:20:53,189 --> 01:20:50,639
intellectual work and we peak very late

2410
01:20:54,870 --> 01:20:53,199
when it comes to wisdom

2411
01:20:56,629 --> 01:20:54,880
and that's a distinction you have to

2412
01:21:01,270 --> 01:20:56,639
keep in mind wisdom peaks

2413
01:21:03,510 --> 01:21:01,280
late intellect peaks early

2414
01:21:05,270 --> 01:21:03,520
and that that's a monumental intellect

2415
01:21:07,030 --> 01:21:05,280
to achievement the different threads it

2416
01:21:08,390 --> 01:21:07,040
has managed to weave in there which is

2417
01:21:12,310 --> 01:21:08,400
reflected in the title

2418
01:21:13,189 --> 01:21:12,320
are fantastic and and it's very seducing

2419
01:21:15,510 --> 01:21:13,199
his story and

2420
01:21:17,750 --> 01:21:15,520
okay to try to summarize that book in a

2421
01:21:19,590 --> 01:21:17,760
conversation is nearly impossible

2422
01:21:21,590 --> 01:21:19,600
or it's effectively impossible so what

2423
01:21:21,990 --> 01:21:21,600
i'm about to say will be an injustice

2424
01:21:23,830 --> 01:21:22,000
but

2425
01:21:25,030 --> 01:21:23,840
we need to do we need something to guide

2426
01:21:27,189 --> 01:21:25,040
our conversation so

2427
01:21:29,189 --> 01:21:27,199
i'll summarize it unfairly in the

2428
01:21:32,470 --> 01:21:29,199
following way

2429
01:21:34,470 --> 01:21:32,480
he uses the idea of strange loops

2430
01:21:35,990 --> 01:21:34,480
that's the name he uses strange loops

2431
01:21:38,790 --> 01:21:36,000
and what basically

2432
01:21:40,870 --> 01:21:38,800
these are are self-referential loops

2433
01:21:42,470 --> 01:21:40,880
things that refer to themselves and you

2434
01:21:45,030 --> 01:21:42,480
see that in godot's proof

2435
01:21:46,870 --> 01:21:45,040
of his incompleteness theorem you see

2436
01:21:49,110 --> 01:21:46,880
that in the canons of

2437
01:21:50,629 --> 01:21:49,120
bach compositions and you see that in

2438
01:21:54,229 --> 01:21:50,639
the paintings of uh

2439
01:21:56,709 --> 01:21:54,239
asher the the dutch

2440
01:21:57,750 --> 01:21:56,719
draw artist drawing artists more than a

2441
01:21:59,910 --> 01:21:57,760
painter

2442
01:22:02,709 --> 01:21:59,920
in which things sort of self-refer there

2443
01:22:04,870 --> 01:22:02,719
are strange loops of self-reference

2444
01:22:06,950 --> 01:22:04,880
which are very difficult to wrap one's

2445
01:22:07,750 --> 01:22:06,960
mind around because of the

2446
01:22:11,990 --> 01:22:07,760
self-reference

2447
01:22:13,189 --> 01:22:12,000
into an intellectual drawer because it

2448
01:22:15,030 --> 01:22:13,199
seems to be a hydra

2449
01:22:16,390 --> 01:22:15,040
whenever you think you got it under

2450
01:22:17,830 --> 01:22:16,400
control other heads pop

2451
01:22:19,910 --> 01:22:17,840
elsewhere and sort of catch you from

2452
01:22:20,550 --> 01:22:19,920
behind because of this self-referential

2453
01:22:23,030 --> 01:22:20,560
loops

2454
01:22:23,669 --> 01:22:23,040
and he constructs this he helps you

2455
01:22:26,310 --> 01:22:23,679
build this

2456
01:22:28,070 --> 01:22:26,320
intuition about the strangeness of

2457
01:22:31,430 --> 01:22:28,080
self-referential loops

2458
01:22:33,990 --> 01:22:31,440
in a majestic way it's a true

2459
01:22:36,470 --> 01:22:34,000
master of conveying that intuition and i

2460
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:36,480
think the book is monumental all the way

2461
01:22:40,470 --> 01:22:37,440
close to the end

2462
01:22:41,270 --> 01:22:40,480
because then his last move is like a

2463
01:22:43,430 --> 01:22:41,280
fall

2464
01:22:44,470 --> 01:22:43,440
from the precipice it's like he climbs

2465
01:22:48,070 --> 01:22:44,480
the world's

2466
01:22:50,629 --> 01:22:48,080
tallest intellectual mountain just to

2467
01:22:52,790 --> 01:22:50,639
throw himself into into the abyss at the

2468
01:22:55,430 --> 01:22:52,800
very end instead of standing in there

2469
01:22:56,870 --> 01:22:55,440
and cheering he just throws himself into

2470
01:22:58,950 --> 01:22:56,880
the dark abyss because

2471
01:22:59,990 --> 01:22:58,960
the idea he tries to convince you off is

2472
01:23:03,430 --> 01:23:00,000
that

2473
01:23:06,870 --> 01:23:03,440
somehow because of all the weirdness

2474
01:23:08,229 --> 01:23:06,880
of these self-referential loops somehow

2475
01:23:10,550 --> 01:23:08,239
that relates to the origin of

2476
01:23:15,110 --> 01:23:10,560
consciousness

2477
01:23:17,510 --> 01:23:15,120
and this is an appeal to complexity

2478
01:23:18,229 --> 01:23:17,520
to hide an impossible intellectual

2479
01:23:19,830 --> 01:23:18,239
position

2480
01:23:21,270 --> 01:23:19,840
does he just say it's somehow connected

2481
01:23:25,990 --> 01:23:21,280
or does he give more of a

2482
01:23:30,149 --> 01:23:27,830
i would say he claims to give a more

2483
01:23:32,870 --> 01:23:30,159
direct account i don't see that direct

2484
01:23:34,629 --> 01:23:32,880
account i see an arbitrary jump

2485
01:23:36,550 --> 01:23:34,639
from the acknowledgement of something

2486
01:23:38,550 --> 01:23:36,560
very strange

2487
01:23:40,070 --> 01:23:38,560
to something related to consciousness

2488
01:23:41,910 --> 01:23:40,080
which is not even consciousness because

2489
01:23:43,430 --> 01:23:41,920
what he's appealing to when he tries to

2490
01:23:45,350 --> 01:23:43,440
explain consciousness

2491
01:23:47,669 --> 01:23:45,360
is not phenomenal consciousness he's

2492
01:23:50,870 --> 01:23:47,679
appealing to self-reflection

2493
01:23:52,629 --> 01:23:50,880
self-reflection is one particular

2494
01:23:55,430 --> 01:23:52,639
configuration of consciousness one

2495
01:23:57,750 --> 01:23:55,440
particular modality of consciousness

2496
01:23:58,709 --> 01:23:57,760
phenomenal consciousness is is the

2497
01:24:00,390 --> 01:23:58,719
problem here

2498
01:24:02,070 --> 01:24:00,400
once you have phenomenal consciousness

2499
01:24:04,149 --> 01:24:02,080
you certainly can account for the

2500
01:24:06,629 --> 01:24:04,159
emergence of self-reflection

2501
01:24:07,830 --> 01:24:06,639
out of a mind that already experiences

2502
01:24:10,790 --> 01:24:07,840
and i would grant to you

2503
01:24:13,110 --> 01:24:10,800
he succeeds in that in a highly poetic

2504
01:24:16,390 --> 01:24:13,120
and intellectually sophisticated way

2505
01:24:16,629 --> 01:24:16,400
he succeeds in explaining the the rise

2506
01:24:19,510 --> 01:24:16,639
of

2507
01:24:19,990 --> 01:24:19,520
self-reflection but he doesn't succeed

2508
01:24:23,350 --> 01:24:20,000
in

2509
01:24:24,709 --> 01:24:23,360
by

2510
01:24:26,790 --> 01:24:24,719
assuming that there is already

2511
01:24:28,310 --> 01:24:26,800
phenomenality to begin with

2512
01:24:29,510 --> 01:24:28,320
okay so if i understand this correctly

2513
01:24:30,390 --> 01:24:29,520
you see him as explaining

2514
01:24:31,990 --> 01:24:30,400
self-consciousness

2515
01:24:33,590 --> 01:24:32,000
given consciousness but he doesn't

2516
01:24:35,030 --> 01:24:33,600
explain consciousness itself

2517
01:24:36,709 --> 01:24:35,040
yes but he may use the word

2518
01:24:38,629 --> 01:24:36,719
consciousness in the sense of

2519
01:24:42,229 --> 01:24:38,639
self-reflection or self-conscience

2520
01:24:43,830 --> 01:24:42,239
or it's conflating and that happens a

2521
01:24:45,350 --> 01:24:43,840
lot in neuroscience that happens in

2522
01:24:47,030 --> 01:24:45,360
psychology

2523
01:24:48,870 --> 01:24:47,040
it happens a lot it's widespread

2524
01:24:51,189 --> 01:24:48,880
philosophers have tried to

2525
01:24:53,030 --> 01:24:51,199
help and you know make sure that these

2526
01:24:55,110 --> 01:24:53,040
words have coherent meanings and

2527
01:24:56,149 --> 01:24:55,120
distinctive meanings but people make a

2528
01:24:58,310 --> 01:24:56,159
mess but

2529
01:25:01,350 --> 01:24:58,320
let me bring to your attention again

2530
01:25:03,270 --> 01:25:01,360
that the problem is not self-reflection

2531
01:25:05,750 --> 01:25:03,280
or self-consciousness the problem

2532
01:25:07,270 --> 01:25:05,760
is that there is experience at all that

2533
01:25:09,189 --> 01:25:07,280
qualities can emerge

2534
01:25:11,510 --> 01:25:09,199
from quantities from mere numbers and

2535
01:25:13,110 --> 01:25:11,520
abstractions that is the problem

2536
01:25:15,669 --> 01:25:13,120
now how something that already

2537
01:25:18,310 --> 01:25:15,679
experiences can then develop the ability

2538
01:25:19,189 --> 01:25:18,320
to cognize its own experiences

2539
01:25:21,750 --> 01:25:19,199
explicitly

2540
01:25:23,590 --> 01:25:21,760
in other words to tell itself oh i am

2541
01:25:25,910 --> 01:25:23,600
having this experience now

2542
01:25:27,669 --> 01:25:25,920
that's a trivial problem a relatively

2543
01:25:29,910 --> 01:25:27,679
trivial it's a problem for

2544
01:25:30,870 --> 01:25:29,920
cognitive neuroscience cognitive

2545
01:25:33,189 --> 01:25:30,880
psychology

2546
01:25:34,629 --> 01:25:33,199
it's not a problem of a metaphysical

2547
01:25:38,070 --> 01:25:34,639
nature

2548
01:25:41,510 --> 01:25:38,080
and and the whole path

2549
01:25:44,229 --> 01:25:41,520
that that is followed in that book

2550
01:25:45,030 --> 01:25:44,239
has to do with self-reflection and and

2551
01:25:46,550 --> 01:25:45,040
and then it

2552
01:25:48,229 --> 01:25:46,560
but it doesn't explain phenomenal

2553
01:25:50,149 --> 01:25:48,239
consciousness at all and he's a

2554
01:25:52,229 --> 01:25:50,159
hofstadter is not the only one

2555
01:25:53,590 --> 01:25:52,239
uh to to make this conflation it's it's

2556
01:25:56,149 --> 01:25:53,600
all over the place so

2557
01:25:58,550 --> 01:25:56,159
i think he doesn't explain phenomenal

2558
01:26:02,310 --> 01:25:58,560
consciousness at all and

2559
01:26:03,669 --> 01:26:02,320
to talk about um ray kurzweil again in

2560
01:26:07,030 --> 01:26:03,679
his 2005

2561
01:26:09,750 --> 01:26:07,040
book the singularity is near

2562
01:26:10,950 --> 01:26:09,760
he appeals to pure complexity to explain

2563
01:26:12,950 --> 01:26:10,960
consciousness

2564
01:26:15,430 --> 01:26:12,960
which is similar to the strangeness of

2565
01:26:18,149 --> 01:26:15,440
the loops that hofstadt therapeuts to

2566
01:26:19,189 --> 01:26:18,159
and what you see consistent behind all

2567
01:26:21,110 --> 01:26:19,199
these different

2568
01:26:23,590 --> 01:26:21,120
attempts to reconcile consciousness with

2569
01:26:24,629 --> 01:26:23,600
materialism is an appeal to complexity

2570
01:26:29,350 --> 01:26:24,639
and appeal to an

2571
01:26:30,870 --> 01:26:29,360
unknown and to to lay bare what i think

2572
01:26:32,870 --> 01:26:30,880
is going on there to you it's like

2573
01:26:36,470 --> 01:26:32,880
saying that

2574
01:26:40,070 --> 01:26:36,480
if we add enough legs to a centipede

2575
01:26:41,430 --> 01:26:40,080
centipede it will eventually fly

2576
01:26:42,790 --> 01:26:41,440
because at some point there will be so

2577
01:26:44,390 --> 01:26:42,800
many legs so man you can't even

2578
01:26:46,629 --> 01:26:44,400
visualize you can't picture it with so

2579
01:26:50,390 --> 01:26:46,639
many legs it's so complex so amazing

2580
01:26:53,830 --> 01:26:50,400
it will fly well no it will not

2581
01:26:56,790 --> 01:26:53,840
because adding legs does nothing er

2582
01:26:58,550 --> 01:26:56,800
to to the ability of flying so it

2583
01:27:00,310 --> 01:26:58,560
doesn't matter how many legs you add it

2584
01:27:01,990 --> 01:27:00,320
has nothing to do with flight

2585
01:27:03,750 --> 01:27:02,000
so when it comes to consciousness

2586
01:27:05,510 --> 01:27:03,760
material is to acknowledge that a few

2587
01:27:07,189 --> 01:27:05,520
neurons talking to one another is not

2588
01:27:09,110 --> 01:27:07,199
conscious because now we can measure

2589
01:27:10,709 --> 01:27:09,120
all the parameters that are of relevance

2590
01:27:12,390 --> 01:27:10,719
and they're all quantitative

2591
01:27:14,229 --> 01:27:12,400
so there is no reason to think that that

2592
01:27:16,310 --> 01:27:14,239
would create qualities right

2593
01:27:17,270 --> 01:27:16,320
there is nothing about a series of

2594
01:27:19,350 --> 01:27:17,280
neurons

2595
01:27:22,149 --> 01:27:19,360
sending electrochemical impulses to one

2596
01:27:24,629 --> 01:27:22,159
another that contains the redness of red

2597
01:27:26,070 --> 01:27:24,639
or let me say the greenness of green

2598
01:27:26,550 --> 01:27:26,080
because the neurons are not themselves

2599
01:27:29,030 --> 01:27:26,560
green

2600
01:27:29,669 --> 01:27:29,040
and and electrochemical impulses are not

2601
01:27:32,870 --> 01:27:29,679
green

2602
01:27:35,750 --> 01:27:32,880
all know that

2603
01:27:37,590 --> 01:27:35,760
but we say but if you just put enough

2604
01:27:39,350 --> 01:27:37,600
neurons talking to each other

2605
01:27:40,790 --> 01:27:39,360
in such a complex way that you can't

2606
01:27:42,950 --> 01:27:40,800
even think about it you can't even

2607
01:27:44,709 --> 01:27:42,960
visualize it then green has emerges

2608
01:27:47,270 --> 01:27:44,719
no it doesn't for the same reason that

2609
01:27:49,910 --> 01:27:47,280
the centipede with more legs doesn't fly

2610
01:27:50,790 --> 01:27:49,920
or even appeal to an unknown well my

2611
01:27:52,629 --> 01:27:50,800
issue would be

2612
01:27:53,830 --> 01:27:52,639
maybe it does in some way but you

2613
01:27:54,790 --> 01:27:53,840
haven't explained it at all you've just

2614
01:27:57,350 --> 01:27:54,800
said it's complex

2615
01:27:58,790 --> 01:27:57,360
therefore the quality of it said nothing

2616
01:27:59,990 --> 01:27:58,800
but you see this is what keeping

2617
01:28:02,310 --> 01:28:00,000
materialism alive

2618
01:28:04,070 --> 01:28:02,320
it's not it's extra planetary power it

2619
01:28:04,950 --> 01:28:04,080
can't explain experience and therefore

2620
01:28:06,709 --> 01:28:04,960
it can be said

2621
01:28:08,310 --> 01:28:06,719
that it doesn't explain anything because

2622
01:28:10,149 --> 01:28:08,320
everything we know we know by virtue of

2623
01:28:13,430 --> 01:28:10,159
experiencing it in some way

2624
01:28:14,470 --> 01:28:13,440
but it's being kept alive by trying to

2625
01:28:18,070 --> 01:28:14,480
keep

2626
01:28:18,629 --> 01:28:18,080
its plausibility open in other words the

2627
01:28:20,870 --> 01:28:18,639
effort

2628
01:28:22,229 --> 01:28:20,880
is in not admitting that it's dead the

2629
01:28:24,149 --> 01:28:22,239
effort is in saying well

2630
01:28:26,149 --> 01:28:24,159
we can't explain it now but we may

2631
01:28:28,790 --> 01:28:26,159
explain it in the future in some

2632
01:28:30,390 --> 01:28:28,800
incredibly torturous lines of argument

2633
01:28:34,070 --> 01:28:30,400
that actually don't touch many of

2634
01:28:36,390 --> 01:28:34,080
the important issues but sort of create

2635
01:28:38,149 --> 01:28:36,400
a smoke screen so the survival of

2636
01:28:40,070 --> 01:28:38,159
materialism now the efforts in that

2637
01:28:42,149 --> 01:28:40,080
direction are focused on creating these

2638
01:28:43,910 --> 01:28:42,159
intellectual smoke screens and they are

2639
01:28:45,990 --> 01:28:43,920
just that their smoke screens

2640
01:28:47,350 --> 01:28:46,000
incoherent appeals to the unknown

2641
01:28:49,510 --> 01:28:47,360
incoherent abuse

2642
01:28:50,470 --> 01:28:49,520
to complexity to try to keep that story

2643
01:28:52,470 --> 01:28:50,480
alive right

2644
01:28:54,550 --> 01:28:52,480
um then the tricky part is that it's not

2645
01:28:55,990 --> 01:28:54,560
unjustified because before there was

2646
01:28:56,870 --> 01:28:56,000
plenty that we thought was magic and we

2647
01:28:59,189 --> 01:28:56,880
couldn't explain

2648
01:29:00,950 --> 01:28:59,199
and then slowly materialism has

2649
01:29:01,510 --> 01:29:00,960
explained that explain that explain that

2650
01:29:02,790 --> 01:29:01,520
so now

2651
01:29:05,030 --> 01:29:02,800
they think well consciousness is just

2652
01:29:05,750 --> 01:29:05,040
one of those that we deem to be magical

2653
01:29:07,430 --> 01:29:05,760
somehow

2654
01:29:08,790 --> 01:29:07,440
or at least the spiritual types or at

2655
01:29:09,510 --> 01:29:08,800
least they view the spiritual types as

2656
01:29:11,750 --> 01:29:09,520
deeming it as much

2657
01:29:12,790 --> 01:29:11,760
another conflation materialism has never

2658
01:29:15,189 --> 01:29:12,800
explained anything

2659
01:29:15,990 --> 01:29:15,199
at all what has explained things is

2660
01:29:21,110 --> 01:29:16,000
science

2661
01:29:22,870 --> 01:29:21,120
natural the problem is that so many

2662
01:29:25,590 --> 01:29:22,880
scientists conflate the two

2663
01:29:27,510 --> 01:29:25,600
that we created this cultural fable that

2664
01:29:28,149 --> 01:29:27,520
science is inherent materially science

2665
01:29:29,830 --> 01:29:28,159
is not

2666
01:29:31,350 --> 01:29:29,840
science allows us to predict the

2667
01:29:33,350 --> 01:29:31,360
behavior of nature

2668
01:29:35,030 --> 01:29:33,360
so if our predictive models work in the

2669
01:29:35,590 --> 01:29:35,040
sense that we predict that nature will

2670
01:29:37,030 --> 01:29:35,600
do this

2671
01:29:38,629 --> 01:29:37,040
if this and this happens and then nature

2672
01:29:40,470 --> 01:29:38,639
goes ahead and does exactly that

2673
01:29:42,149 --> 01:29:40,480
okay science works and we can develop

2674
01:29:43,270 --> 01:29:42,159
technology on the basis of that

2675
01:29:45,990 --> 01:29:43,280
predictive power

2676
01:29:46,870 --> 01:29:46,000
but none of it depends on an

2677
01:29:50,149 --> 01:29:46,880
understanding

2678
01:29:56,310 --> 01:29:50,159
is

2679
01:29:58,550 --> 01:29:56,320
way it's behaving

2680
01:30:00,310 --> 01:29:58,560
that its behavior is not in dispute it

2681
01:30:01,830 --> 01:30:00,320
does what it does we can predict it we

2682
01:30:03,189 --> 01:30:01,840
can model it we can write equations

2683
01:30:05,830 --> 01:30:03,199
about it we can prove

2684
01:30:07,910 --> 01:30:05,840
the effect and effective effectiveness

2685
01:30:11,110 --> 01:30:07,920
of those equations through experiment

2686
01:30:12,470 --> 01:30:11,120
and none of that says an iota about what

2687
01:30:14,390 --> 01:30:12,480
nature is

2688
01:30:16,629 --> 01:30:14,400
the metaphysical question is the

2689
01:30:19,669 --> 01:30:16,639
question of materialism materialism says

2690
01:30:22,229 --> 01:30:19,679
nature is essentially non-mental

2691
01:30:23,830 --> 01:30:22,239
it nature is essentially quantitative

2692
01:30:24,870 --> 01:30:23,840
independent of mind right yeah but it's

2693
01:30:26,629 --> 01:30:24,880
not science

2694
01:30:28,470 --> 01:30:26,639
science uses the quantities to build

2695
01:30:30,550 --> 01:30:28,480
predictive models not to say that

2696
01:30:32,310 --> 01:30:30,560
nature is quantitative science doesn't

2697
01:30:33,189 --> 01:30:32,320
make the statement doesn't need to make

2698
01:30:35,189 --> 01:30:33,199
the statements

2699
01:30:36,310 --> 01:30:35,199
so i would say materialism never

2700
01:30:39,350 --> 01:30:36,320
explained anything

2701
01:30:40,070 --> 01:30:39,360
all it did was to carve out in the 17th

2702
01:30:43,990 --> 01:30:40,080
century

2703
01:30:45,990 --> 01:30:44,000
to carve out a space for science uh

2704
01:30:48,470 --> 01:30:46,000
different from the space that scientists

2705
01:30:50,470 --> 01:30:48,480
had to grant to the church

2706
01:30:52,070 --> 01:30:50,480
the soul of man belonged to the church

2707
01:30:53,990 --> 01:30:52,080
and if scientists tried to

2708
01:30:55,189 --> 01:30:54,000
wander into that territory they would be

2709
01:30:58,470 --> 01:30:55,199
burned at the stake

2710
01:31:02,629 --> 01:30:58,480
so there was a very very good reason to

2711
01:31:04,550 --> 01:31:02,639
leave mental space alone to the church

2712
01:31:07,350 --> 01:31:04,560
because you see the word for mentality

2713
01:31:08,470 --> 01:31:07,360
in greek is psyche which is a same word

2714
01:31:11,669 --> 01:31:08,480
for soul

2715
01:31:13,669 --> 01:31:11,679
so so mentality consciousness

2716
01:31:14,790 --> 01:31:13,679
back in the 17th century they were the

2717
01:31:16,550 --> 01:31:14,800
one in the same thing

2718
01:31:18,149 --> 01:31:16,560
so scientists needed to differentiate

2719
01:31:19,590 --> 01:31:18,159
from that to carve out a space where

2720
01:31:21,030 --> 01:31:19,600
they could work without being burned

2721
01:31:24,149 --> 01:31:21,040
alive

2722
01:31:27,189 --> 01:31:24,159
the invention of materialism

2723
01:31:29,510 --> 01:31:27,199
served that purpose it was not

2724
01:31:31,189 --> 01:31:29,520
an explanatory thing well you could say

2725
01:31:32,229 --> 01:31:31,199
it was handy in the sense that it

2726
01:31:34,950 --> 01:31:32,239
allowed

2727
01:31:36,790 --> 01:31:34,960
the scientist to to separate himself

2728
01:31:38,629 --> 01:31:36,800
from the subject of study

2729
01:31:40,629 --> 01:31:38,639
by by thinking of his own mind as

2730
01:31:42,390 --> 01:31:40,639
encapsulated in matter

2731
01:31:44,229 --> 01:31:42,400
his beliefs about the outcome of

2732
01:31:46,870 --> 01:31:44,239
experiments wouldn't uh

2733
01:31:47,910 --> 01:31:46,880
impinge on the experiment so whatever he

2734
01:31:49,669 --> 01:31:47,920
believed

2735
01:31:52,709 --> 01:31:49,679
didn't matter only the result of the

2736
01:31:55,110 --> 01:31:52,719
experiment so it had a psychological

2737
01:31:56,870 --> 01:31:55,120
role to play that helped scientists

2738
01:31:58,709 --> 01:31:56,880
become more neutral more impartial i

2739
01:32:00,790 --> 01:31:58,719
would grant that it had a

2740
01:32:02,629 --> 01:32:00,800
social political role to play to allow

2741
01:32:03,430 --> 01:32:02,639
science scientists to carve out a space

2742
01:32:05,669 --> 01:32:03,440
for themselves

2743
01:32:07,110 --> 01:32:05,679
without the risk of being burned alive

2744
01:32:10,790 --> 01:32:07,120
but it has never

2745
01:32:13,910 --> 01:32:10,800
never had an iota of an explanatory role

2746
01:32:15,510 --> 01:32:13,920
it can't have because all that we know

2747
01:32:16,790 --> 01:32:15,520
to happen we know by virtue of

2748
01:32:18,470 --> 01:32:16,800
experiencing it

2749
01:32:21,110 --> 01:32:18,480
and materialism does not explain

2750
01:32:23,189 --> 01:32:21,120
experience it explains exactly nothing

2751
01:32:25,350 --> 01:32:23,199
it has been a socially and

2752
01:32:28,310 --> 01:32:25,360
psychologically useful fairy tale

2753
01:32:30,229 --> 01:32:28,320
but one we have grown out of we are

2754
01:32:31,830 --> 01:32:30,239
better than this we are better than to

2755
01:32:34,550 --> 01:32:31,840
hide behind complexity

2756
01:32:36,550 --> 01:32:34,560
to hold on to an into an untenable

2757
01:32:38,550 --> 01:32:36,560
intellectual story that has reduced

2758
01:32:39,830 --> 01:32:38,560
itself to absurdity but we don't admit

2759
01:32:40,709 --> 01:32:39,840
it we call it the heart problem of

2760
01:32:43,030 --> 01:32:40,719
consciousness

2761
01:32:43,910 --> 01:32:43,040
and in order to safeguard our own

2762
01:32:45,990 --> 01:32:43,920
self-image

2763
01:32:47,590 --> 01:32:46,000
and the commitment we've made publicly

2764
01:32:49,750 --> 01:32:47,600
to a certain narrative

2765
01:32:52,070 --> 01:32:49,760
um and it's a shame that it's playing

2766
01:32:53,430 --> 01:32:52,080
out this way

2767
01:32:55,510 --> 01:32:53,440
have you heard of dennett's quinine

2768
01:32:57,830 --> 01:32:55,520
qualia

2769
01:33:00,390 --> 01:32:57,840
i have heard of it uh i've read some

2770
01:33:03,030 --> 01:33:00,400
about it but i don't consider myself

2771
01:33:05,750 --> 01:33:03,040
uh knowledgeable enough of the subject

2772
01:33:06,870 --> 01:33:05,760
to criticize or comment intelligently

2773
01:33:13,750 --> 01:33:06,880
essentially what he's doing is

2774
01:33:17,350 --> 01:33:15,910
that's probably the case for a

2775
01:33:19,990 --> 01:33:17,360
particular

2776
01:33:21,669 --> 01:33:20,000
very a restrictive definition of qualia

2777
01:33:25,110 --> 01:33:21,679
that then it holds in his own

2778
01:33:28,149 --> 01:33:25,120
mind um he's not the only one to do that

2779
01:33:28,870 --> 01:33:28,159
um there are others there's his little

2780
01:33:32,470 --> 01:33:28,880
followers

2781
01:33:34,790 --> 01:33:32,480
that that hold to the same point of view

2782
01:33:36,310 --> 01:33:34,800
but if you engage with them and you try

2783
01:33:39,350 --> 01:33:36,320
to really know

2784
01:33:40,870 --> 01:33:39,360
make explicit what all the assumptions

2785
01:33:42,229 --> 01:33:40,880
are all the term definitions what

2786
01:33:43,990 --> 01:33:42,239
they're actually saying

2787
01:33:45,590 --> 01:33:44,000
you will notice that what they mean by

2788
01:33:48,709 --> 01:33:45,600
by qualia

2789
01:33:51,669 --> 01:33:48,719
is not pure

2790
01:33:54,070 --> 01:33:51,679
raw experience it's a theoretical

2791
01:33:57,669 --> 01:33:54,080
construct

2792
01:34:00,950 --> 01:33:57,679
to to say that qualia don't exist

2793
01:34:05,430 --> 01:34:00,960
is the most self-evidently absurd

2794
01:34:07,430 --> 01:34:05,440
statement conceivable to human thought

2795
01:34:09,350 --> 01:34:07,440
because it's to deny that there has ever

2796
01:34:10,229 --> 01:34:09,360
been an experience that you have ever

2797
01:34:13,510 --> 01:34:10,239
had

2798
01:34:14,870 --> 01:34:13,520
now if you confront the danette side of

2799
01:34:17,430 --> 01:34:14,880
things i debated one

2800
01:34:18,950 --> 01:34:17,440
online via twitter several times last

2801
01:34:21,270 --> 01:34:18,960
year

2802
01:34:23,030 --> 01:34:21,280
keith frankish is his name we even had

2803
01:34:26,070 --> 01:34:23,040
an exchange of

2804
01:34:29,510 --> 01:34:26,080
essays on the iai the institute of art

2805
01:34:33,270 --> 01:34:29,520
and ideas we had a very public

2806
01:34:36,870 --> 01:34:33,280
and contentious debate um

2807
01:34:38,229 --> 01:34:36,880
you see that they don't deny the rawness

2808
01:34:39,910 --> 01:34:38,239
of experience because

2809
01:34:42,550 --> 01:34:39,920
they would basically be committing

2810
01:34:44,310 --> 01:34:42,560
themselves to the lunatic asylum if if

2811
01:34:47,350 --> 01:34:44,320
they did that and they're not that

2812
01:34:51,350 --> 01:34:47,360
stupid they are not stupid they are

2813
01:34:53,910 --> 01:34:51,360
intelligent enough to weave a complex

2814
01:34:55,350 --> 01:34:53,920
enough intellectual web that they

2815
01:34:57,990 --> 01:34:55,360
themselves get stuck in it

2816
01:34:59,350 --> 01:34:58,000
and cannot find their way out and and

2817
01:34:59,990 --> 01:34:59,360
that's the dark side of high

2818
01:35:03,189 --> 01:35:00,000
intelligence

2819
01:35:05,750 --> 01:35:03,199
you can weave with high sophistication

2820
01:35:06,870 --> 01:35:05,760
a web that is so complex so

2821
01:35:09,030 --> 01:35:06,880
sophisticated

2822
01:35:11,350 --> 01:35:09,040
that you yourself get caught in it and

2823
01:35:13,990 --> 01:35:11,360
you're unable to find your way out

2824
01:35:14,629 --> 01:35:14,000
um the simplicity of the problem eludes

2825
01:35:16,550 --> 01:35:14,639
them

2826
01:35:17,990 --> 01:35:16,560
the simplicity of the meaning of the

2827
01:35:21,189 --> 01:35:18,000
word qualia for

2828
01:35:24,070 --> 01:35:21,199
most of us that are not caught in in

2829
01:35:24,550 --> 01:35:24,080
torches intellectual abstractions is too

2830
01:35:27,510 --> 01:35:24,560
simple

2831
01:35:28,790 --> 01:35:27,520
for them to even discern for them to see

2832
01:35:31,669 --> 01:35:28,800
the simplicity of that

2833
01:35:33,270 --> 01:35:31,679
and that is raw simple experience if

2834
01:35:35,990 --> 01:35:33,280
you're hungry that's qualia

2835
01:35:37,109 --> 01:35:36,000
you see a red apple that's qualia you

2836
01:35:39,750 --> 01:35:37,119
think about your

2837
01:35:41,669 --> 01:35:39,760
immortal soul that's qualia whatever is

2838
01:35:42,149 --> 01:35:41,679
not quali is fundamentally beyond your

2839
01:35:45,109 --> 01:35:42,159
ability

2840
01:35:46,629 --> 01:35:45,119
to know even your abstractions are a

2841
01:35:48,950 --> 01:35:46,639
form of qualia as such

2842
01:35:49,990 --> 01:35:48,960
as abstractions in your mind you cannot

2843
01:35:53,350 --> 01:35:50,000
escape that

2844
01:35:55,189 --> 01:35:53,360
so by proving that something else

2845
01:35:56,550 --> 01:35:55,199
that they mean by the word qualia

2846
01:35:59,750 --> 01:35:56,560
doesn't exist

2847
01:36:00,709 --> 01:35:59,760
they are either incoherent or they are

2848
01:36:02,629 --> 01:36:00,719
irrelevant

2849
01:36:04,390 --> 01:36:02,639
because either they mean by qualia what

2850
01:36:05,990 --> 01:36:04,400
you and i mean

2851
01:36:07,430 --> 01:36:06,000
and then it's absurd what they're saying

2852
01:36:08,950 --> 01:36:07,440
obviously quality exists

2853
01:36:10,310 --> 01:36:08,960
or they mean something else we're

2854
01:36:12,149 --> 01:36:10,320
strictly defined in a highly

2855
01:36:14,310 --> 01:36:12,159
sophisticated and torturous

2856
01:36:16,310 --> 01:36:14,320
philosophical manner and that thing that

2857
01:36:18,070 --> 01:36:16,320
they define indeed doesn't exist

2858
01:36:19,590 --> 01:36:18,080
but it's completely irrelevant because

2859
01:36:21,430 --> 01:36:19,600
it doesn't have any bearing on the heart

2860
01:36:22,870 --> 01:36:21,440
problem

2861
01:36:25,510 --> 01:36:22,880
bernard i gotta use the washroom super

2862
01:36:26,790 --> 01:36:25,520
quick sure if you don't then do you mind

2863
01:36:28,149 --> 01:36:26,800
quickly explaining to the audience

2864
01:36:28,629 --> 01:36:28,159
because they're probably thinking about

2865
01:36:32,550 --> 01:36:28,639
this

2866
01:36:33,910 --> 01:36:32,560
on the mind then why is it that there

2867
01:36:35,270 --> 01:36:33,920
seems to be object permanent so you

2868
01:36:37,990 --> 01:36:35,280
leave the room the object still

2869
01:36:39,030 --> 01:36:38,000
okay you can explain that thank you yeah

2870
01:36:41,189 --> 01:36:39,040
so

2871
01:36:43,350 --> 01:36:41,199
when you say that um as an idealist and

2872
01:36:47,030 --> 01:36:43,360
we say that um

2873
01:36:49,910 --> 01:36:47,040
the whole world is a mind we don't mean

2874
01:36:50,390 --> 01:36:49,920
that it is only in your mind or in my

2875
01:36:53,510 --> 01:36:50,400
mind

2876
01:36:54,310 --> 01:36:53,520
alone we grant that there is a world

2877
01:36:57,430 --> 01:36:54,320
outside

2878
01:36:59,510 --> 01:36:57,440
our personal or individual minds

2879
01:37:00,550 --> 01:36:59,520
separated from us by a dissociative

2880
01:37:04,470 --> 01:37:00,560
boundary

2881
01:37:07,669 --> 01:37:04,480
that characterizes us

2882
01:37:09,109 --> 01:37:07,679
as dissociative alters of this one

2883
01:37:11,350 --> 01:37:09,119
natural mind

2884
01:37:12,229 --> 01:37:11,360
and the image of that of that boundaries

2885
01:37:14,149 --> 01:37:12,239
our skin

2886
01:37:16,070 --> 01:37:14,159
our sense organs and the external

2887
01:37:18,550 --> 01:37:16,080
appearance of our

2888
01:37:19,590 --> 01:37:18,560
self is the image of this dissociative

2889
01:37:22,629 --> 01:37:19,600
boundary that

2890
01:37:26,790 --> 01:37:22,639
separates ourselves from our environment

2891
01:37:28,229 --> 01:37:26,800
in the language of reality of mind i

2892
01:37:29,750 --> 01:37:28,239
would say

2893
01:37:31,830 --> 01:37:29,760
that dissociative boundary is a

2894
01:37:34,550 --> 01:37:31,840
cognitive inferential

2895
01:37:35,910 --> 01:37:34,560
isolating layer between our internal

2896
01:37:37,510 --> 01:37:35,920
mental processes and the mental

2897
01:37:39,750 --> 01:37:37,520
processes

2898
01:37:41,350 --> 01:37:39,760
unfolding in mind at large now i can say

2899
01:37:43,270 --> 01:37:41,360
exactly the same thing

2900
01:37:44,870 --> 01:37:43,280
in the language of representation in the

2901
01:37:46,149 --> 01:37:44,880
language of appearances in the language

2902
01:37:48,229 --> 01:37:46,159
of images and say

2903
01:37:50,070 --> 01:37:48,239
your skin is what keeps your inner

2904
01:37:51,910 --> 01:37:50,080
metabolism separate from

2905
01:37:53,430 --> 01:37:51,920
nature outside your body i'm saying

2906
01:37:54,470 --> 01:37:53,440
exactly the same thing using two

2907
01:37:57,669 --> 01:37:54,480
different languages

2908
01:37:58,470 --> 01:37:57,679
so when i say that always in mind i

2909
01:38:01,109 --> 01:37:58,480
don't mean that

2910
01:38:03,430 --> 01:38:01,119
it's all mental processes within your

2911
01:38:05,430 --> 01:38:03,440
dissociative boundary within our alter

2912
01:38:06,470 --> 01:38:05,440
in your personal conscious in their life

2913
01:38:09,990 --> 01:38:06,480
i don't mean that

2914
01:38:13,669 --> 01:38:10,000
what i mean is that nature beyond you

2915
01:38:16,070 --> 01:38:13,679
nature outside of you is mental as well

2916
01:38:17,430 --> 01:38:16,080
it corresponds to some transpersonal

2917
01:38:20,149 --> 01:38:17,440
mental processes

2918
01:38:21,590 --> 01:38:20,159
that hold their own state and that's why

2919
01:38:23,109 --> 01:38:21,600
when you park your car in the garage

2920
01:38:24,390 --> 01:38:23,119
when you arrive home from work

2921
01:38:25,910 --> 01:38:24,400
and you go to sleep and you're not

2922
01:38:27,669 --> 01:38:25,920
seeing your car next morning you go back

2923
01:38:28,709 --> 01:38:27,679
to the garage and your car is right

2924
01:38:31,910 --> 01:38:28,719
there where you left it

2925
01:38:33,109 --> 01:38:31,920
why because the state mental state that

2926
01:38:37,030 --> 01:38:33,119
corresponds to

2927
01:38:39,430 --> 01:38:37,040
car has been held intact

2928
01:38:40,790 --> 01:38:39,440
in a transpersonal mental process that

2929
01:38:43,189 --> 01:38:40,800
does not depend at all

2930
01:38:44,470 --> 01:38:43,199
on your personal cognitive state whether

2931
01:38:47,109 --> 01:38:44,480
you're awake or not

2932
01:38:47,910 --> 01:38:47,119
that state is held outside of you as an

2933
01:38:51,030 --> 01:38:47,920
individual

2934
01:38:54,870 --> 01:38:51,040
outside

2935
01:38:56,550 --> 01:38:54,880
mind as a substrate it is also mental

2936
01:38:58,229 --> 01:38:56,560
but it's not your mind that's what we

2937
01:38:59,830 --> 01:38:58,239
mean by it

2938
01:39:01,430 --> 01:38:59,840
when you talk about your viewpoint

2939
01:39:03,350 --> 01:39:01,440
sometimes i see you hold up a pen or a

2940
01:39:04,629 --> 01:39:03,360
cup and you say look mine is actually

2941
01:39:06,629 --> 01:39:04,639
the intuitive

2942
01:39:08,149 --> 01:39:06,639
viewpoint because i'm saying this exists

2943
01:39:08,629 --> 01:39:08,159
whereas the materialists are saying that

2944
01:39:10,070 --> 01:39:08,639
this is

2945
01:39:11,590 --> 01:39:10,080
some apprehension that's possibly

2946
01:39:12,950 --> 01:39:11,600
distorted it looks nothing like this

2947
01:39:14,550 --> 01:39:12,960
okay

2948
01:39:17,030 --> 01:39:14,560
now how does that compare with douglas

2949
01:39:18,870 --> 01:39:17,040
hoff sorry donald hoffman's work

2950
01:39:20,950 --> 01:39:18,880
which says that this is a virtual

2951
01:39:22,550 --> 01:39:20,960
reality it seems like it's incompatible

2952
01:39:23,750 --> 01:39:22,560
and then also there's someone named

2953
01:39:24,950 --> 01:39:23,760
thomas campbell i don't know if you've

2954
01:39:26,470 --> 01:39:24,960
heard of him

2955
01:39:28,070 --> 01:39:26,480
i don't know about his work but i have i

2956
01:39:29,510 --> 01:39:28,080
have heard a lot about him yeah

2957
01:39:32,310 --> 01:39:29,520
i haven't read his book yet what have

2958
01:39:37,750 --> 01:39:35,510
he was a physicist who did a lot of

2959
01:39:38,950 --> 01:39:37,760
meditation in his early days and came up

2960
01:39:41,350 --> 01:39:38,960
with a whole theory

2961
01:39:42,310 --> 01:39:41,360
of nature based on his meditative

2962
01:39:44,870 --> 01:39:42,320
insights that have

2963
01:39:45,750 --> 01:39:44,880
when you get the chance it's like 400

2964
01:39:47,910 --> 01:39:45,760
hours of

2965
01:39:49,590 --> 01:39:47,920
time to spend in this one thick book but

2966
01:39:50,310 --> 01:39:49,600
if you ever do read his book called my

2967
01:39:52,550 --> 01:39:50,320
big toe

2968
01:39:53,510 --> 01:39:52,560
that's thomas campbell's me and you have

2969
01:39:54,629 --> 01:39:53,520
to have a conversation about that

2970
01:39:55,750 --> 01:39:54,639
because i want to know what you think

2971
01:39:57,510 --> 01:39:55,760
about that so regardless

2972
01:39:58,790 --> 01:39:57,520
he has a similar viewpoint as donald

2973
01:39:59,910 --> 01:39:58,800
hoffman which says that this world is a

2974
01:40:03,430 --> 01:39:59,920
virtual reality

2975
01:40:05,350 --> 01:40:03,440
okay what do you say to that

2976
01:40:07,109 --> 01:40:05,360
it's completely compatible with what i'm

2977
01:40:09,830 --> 01:40:07,119
saying don and i

2978
01:40:10,629 --> 01:40:09,840
dovetail with each other almost all the

2979
01:40:12,790 --> 01:40:10,639
way to the end

2980
01:40:14,950 --> 01:40:12,800
only at the very end very end there is

2981
01:40:16,550 --> 01:40:14,960
one tiny little thing but important

2982
01:40:18,229 --> 01:40:16,560
where we diverge but it's not a

2983
01:40:20,790 --> 01:40:18,239
fundamental divergence i think we will

2984
01:40:22,229 --> 01:40:20,800
see eye-to-eye on that he's open to it

2985
01:40:25,430 --> 01:40:22,239
very shortly we'll see eye to eye to

2986
01:40:29,109 --> 01:40:25,440
that on that look

2987
01:40:31,590 --> 01:40:29,119
uh the materialist will deny this bottle

2988
01:40:32,470 --> 01:40:31,600
in the sense of its concreteness its

2989
01:40:35,030 --> 01:40:32,480
color

2990
01:40:37,189 --> 01:40:35,040
its texture because the materialist will

2991
01:40:39,109 --> 01:40:37,199
say well that concrete

2992
01:40:40,229 --> 01:40:39,119
concreteness you feel is entirely inside

2993
01:40:41,910 --> 01:40:40,239
your head

2994
01:40:44,070 --> 01:40:41,920
it's created by your brain there is

2995
01:40:46,550 --> 01:40:44,080
something outside that corresponds

2996
01:40:48,149 --> 01:40:46,560
to a concrete bottle but it has no

2997
01:40:49,109 --> 01:40:48,159
qualities including the quality of

2998
01:40:50,790 --> 01:40:49,119
concreteness

2999
01:40:52,229 --> 01:40:50,800
it doesn't have texture doesn't have

3000
01:40:54,310 --> 01:40:52,239
temperature smoothness

3001
01:40:56,310 --> 01:40:54,320
color none of that it does have

3002
01:40:58,629 --> 01:40:56,320
properties that correspond

3003
01:41:00,629 --> 01:40:58,639
to this concreteness but they are not

3004
01:41:01,590 --> 01:41:00,639
the concreteness so this bottle exists

3005
01:41:04,629 --> 01:41:01,600
only in my head

3006
01:41:07,270 --> 01:41:04,639
so the materialist denies the reality of

3007
01:41:09,350 --> 01:41:07,280
the bottle i experience

3008
01:41:11,189 --> 01:41:09,360
outside my own mind they deny that

3009
01:41:12,709 --> 01:41:11,199
reality they say the bottle experience

3010
01:41:15,189 --> 01:41:12,719
exists only in my mind

3011
01:41:16,550 --> 01:41:15,199
what is outside has no qualities now i

3012
01:41:20,550 --> 01:41:16,560
disagree with that

3013
01:41:23,750 --> 01:41:20,560
because i think this concreteness this

3014
01:41:27,750 --> 01:41:23,760
of of this bottle exists

3015
01:41:29,109 --> 01:41:27,760
as an experience and is that experienced

3016
01:41:32,709 --> 01:41:29,119
inside my head

3017
01:41:35,990 --> 01:41:32,719
or is it not it's not

3018
01:41:39,270 --> 01:41:36,000
because my head too

3019
01:41:42,390 --> 01:41:39,280
is something that i perceive

3020
01:41:44,070 --> 01:41:42,400
if i had no mirror i would never see my

3021
01:41:46,229 --> 01:41:44,080
head

3022
01:41:48,310 --> 01:41:46,239
so i cannot i do not say that the

3023
01:41:51,910 --> 01:41:48,320
experience of this bottle

3024
01:41:53,910 --> 01:41:51,920
exists in my head because in my view the

3025
01:41:56,149 --> 01:41:53,920
epistemic status and the ontological

3026
01:41:57,109 --> 01:41:56,159
status of my head is exactly the same as

3027
01:41:59,669 --> 01:41:57,119
the bottle

3028
01:42:00,790 --> 01:41:59,679
look they exist side by side i am

3029
01:42:03,109 --> 01:42:00,800
perceiving them

3030
01:42:04,310 --> 01:42:03,119
side by side obviously the bottle is not

3031
01:42:08,149 --> 01:42:04,320
inside my head

3032
01:42:10,629 --> 01:42:08,159
as an experience right what i do say

3033
01:42:12,550 --> 01:42:10,639
is that the experience is of the bottle

3034
01:42:14,229 --> 01:42:12,560
in the experience of seeing my head on

3035
01:42:18,229 --> 01:42:14,239
the screen right now

3036
01:42:19,750 --> 01:42:18,239
they exist in my altar but my altar is

3037
01:42:22,470 --> 01:42:19,760
not a head

3038
01:42:24,229 --> 01:42:22,480
the head is part of the image of my

3039
01:42:26,390 --> 01:42:24,239
altar

3040
01:42:27,990 --> 01:42:26,400
do you see what i'm trying to get to

3041
01:42:29,830 --> 01:42:28,000
it's a subtle point it's very

3042
01:42:32,229 --> 01:42:29,840
obvious if you're not immersed in the

3043
01:42:33,669 --> 01:42:32,239
assumptions that we inherit from culture

3044
01:42:35,590 --> 01:42:33,679
if you can stick your head out of that

3045
01:42:38,070 --> 01:42:35,600
it's obvious what i'm saying but because

3046
01:42:40,070 --> 01:42:38,080
we are not

3047
01:42:42,870 --> 01:42:40,080
able to look at it from a neutral

3048
01:42:46,950 --> 01:42:42,880
vantage point it seems subtle

3049
01:42:50,470 --> 01:42:46,960
my mental life is not in my head

3050
01:42:52,790 --> 01:42:50,480
my head is a partial image of my mental

3051
01:42:54,870 --> 01:42:52,800
life

3052
01:42:56,310 --> 01:42:54,880
so what space is this all taking place

3053
01:42:58,709 --> 01:42:56,320
in mind space

3054
01:42:59,750 --> 01:42:58,719
i'll get there the experience of this

3055
01:43:03,750 --> 01:42:59,760
bottle

3056
01:43:05,830 --> 01:43:03,760
is entirely in my mental life

3057
01:43:06,950 --> 01:43:05,840
this experience does not exist in mind

3058
01:43:09,590 --> 01:43:06,960
at large

3059
01:43:10,149 --> 01:43:09,600
there are mental processes in mind at

3060
01:43:12,070 --> 01:43:10,159
large

3061
01:43:13,270 --> 01:43:12,080
that correspond to the experience of

3062
01:43:17,750 --> 01:43:13,280
this bottle

3063
01:43:20,070 --> 01:43:17,760
the world outside

3064
01:43:21,750 --> 01:43:20,080
there is something outside experiential

3065
01:43:24,310 --> 01:43:21,760
also mental process

3066
01:43:25,750 --> 01:43:24,320
that corresponds to this bottle on my

3067
01:43:28,310 --> 01:43:25,760
dashboard

3068
01:43:29,830 --> 01:43:28,320
but it is not this bottle this bottle is

3069
01:43:32,870 --> 01:43:29,840
the appearance of it

3070
01:43:36,229 --> 01:43:32,880
it's the representation of it as

3071
01:43:39,030 --> 01:43:36,239
an appearance as a representation

3072
01:43:39,590 --> 01:43:39,040
the bottle exists in my mental life

3073
01:43:42,709 --> 01:43:39,600
alone

3074
01:43:47,350 --> 01:43:42,719
as an as a dissociated altar

3075
01:43:52,229 --> 01:43:49,750
but it's not in my head because my

3076
01:43:56,629 --> 01:43:52,239
mental life is not in my head

3077
01:43:58,790 --> 01:43:56,639
my head too is a representation

3078
01:44:01,430 --> 01:43:58,800
so one representation is not inside

3079
01:44:04,550 --> 01:44:01,440
another representation they both exist

3080
01:44:06,470 --> 01:44:04,560
exist in my in their mental life i think

3081
01:44:07,030 --> 01:44:06,480
part of the confusion for some people

3082
01:44:08,870 --> 01:44:07,040
who are

3083
01:44:10,149 --> 01:44:08,880
listening or watching who consider

3084
01:44:10,950 --> 01:44:10,159
themselves to be materialist or

3085
01:44:13,350 --> 01:44:10,960
physicalist or

3086
01:44:14,870 --> 01:44:13,360
are without knowing is that when someone

3087
01:44:16,149 --> 01:44:14,880
says this exists in your head

3088
01:44:18,149 --> 01:44:16,159
sometimes what they're trying to say is

3089
01:44:19,990 --> 01:44:18,159
this exists in your experience and what

3090
01:44:21,669 --> 01:44:20,000
you're granting is that is the case it

3091
01:44:23,990 --> 01:44:21,679
does exist in my experience

3092
01:44:25,510 --> 01:44:24,000
it doesn't exist in my head because head

3093
01:44:26,709 --> 01:44:25,520
refers to a physical location in

3094
01:44:28,950 --> 01:44:26,719
space-time

3095
01:44:29,830 --> 01:44:28,960
that has a brain and so on and that is

3096
01:44:32,390 --> 01:44:29,840
not only

3097
01:44:34,629 --> 01:44:32,400
a semantic linguistic distinction it's a

3098
01:44:36,470 --> 01:44:34,639
crucial distinction when it comes to

3099
01:44:37,510 --> 01:44:36,480
your understanding of your place in the

3100
01:44:40,790 --> 01:44:37,520
world

3101
01:44:44,310 --> 01:44:40,800
because now it's not all in your head

3102
01:44:47,109 --> 01:44:44,320
you are not restricted to your head

3103
01:44:49,030 --> 01:44:47,119
your head is a representation of mental

3104
01:44:49,830 --> 01:44:49,040
processes that you identify yourself

3105
01:44:52,310 --> 01:44:49,840
with

3106
01:44:53,350 --> 01:44:52,320
but those mental processes are not bound

3107
01:44:55,910 --> 01:44:53,360
in space

3108
01:44:57,669 --> 01:44:55,920
look you can only bind your own mental

3109
01:44:59,669 --> 01:44:57,679
processes in space if you say that they

3110
01:45:01,910 --> 01:44:59,679
are inside your head

3111
01:45:02,870 --> 01:45:01,920
because your head is what exists in

3112
01:45:06,550 --> 01:45:02,880
space

3113
01:45:08,709 --> 01:45:06,560
if you're not talking about

3114
01:45:11,350 --> 01:45:08,719
representations you're not talking about

3115
01:45:12,550 --> 01:45:11,360
space and then it makes no sense to

3116
01:45:15,350 --> 01:45:12,560
regard yourself

3117
01:45:15,750 --> 01:45:15,360
as this tiny irrelevant minuscule little

3118
01:45:18,149 --> 01:45:15,760
thing

3119
01:45:19,910 --> 01:45:18,159
in a huge universe because you're not

3120
01:45:21,590 --> 01:45:19,920
talking about representations anymore

3121
01:45:24,709 --> 01:45:21,600
you're not talking about space

3122
01:45:25,590 --> 01:45:24,719
you have to think extra spatially which

3123
01:45:27,750 --> 01:45:25,600
leads to

3124
01:45:28,709 --> 01:45:27,760
entirely different perspectives about

3125
01:45:30,950 --> 01:45:28,719
your worth

3126
01:45:32,709 --> 01:45:30,960
about your role in nature about what you

3127
01:45:34,870 --> 01:45:32,719
are about what's important

3128
01:45:38,390 --> 01:45:34,880
and what's not so it's not only a

3129
01:45:41,590 --> 01:45:40,390
i have a dutch word now in mind because

3130
01:45:43,590 --> 01:45:41,600
it's the same as the english word

3131
01:45:46,629 --> 01:45:43,600
stopping mining head but stopping that

3132
01:45:51,270 --> 01:45:46,639
means to put something inside another

3133
01:45:56,709 --> 01:45:54,790
is one of the most pernicious

3134
01:45:58,070 --> 01:45:56,719
implications of the materialist

3135
01:46:01,990 --> 01:45:58,080
worldview you can

3136
01:46:05,189 --> 01:46:02,000
possibly think of because it has

3137
01:46:07,030 --> 01:46:05,199
limited our being uh to irrelevance and

3138
01:46:08,149 --> 01:46:07,040
we are proud of it we think we got rid

3139
01:46:10,550 --> 01:46:08,159
of our hubris

3140
01:46:11,350 --> 01:46:10,560
no we have enormous hubris in other ways

3141
01:46:13,030 --> 01:46:11,360
we have

3142
01:46:14,950 --> 01:46:13,040
the hubris to think that our theories

3143
01:46:17,189 --> 01:46:14,960
can explain the whole universe

3144
01:46:18,950 --> 01:46:17,199
that's hubris in another form but we are

3145
01:46:21,109 --> 01:46:18,960
proud to have made ourselves

3146
01:46:21,990 --> 01:46:21,119
into nothing because we sort of put our

3147
01:46:25,109 --> 01:46:22,000
own minds

3148
01:46:27,830 --> 01:46:25,119
inside our heads limited it in space

3149
01:46:29,830 --> 01:46:27,840
look this you have that hubris by saying

3150
01:46:31,910 --> 01:46:29,840
that you can explain the entire universe

3151
01:46:34,950 --> 01:46:31,920
with your theory

3152
01:46:37,830 --> 01:46:34,960
i am interpreting the universe

3153
01:46:39,030 --> 01:46:37,840
my explanatory power is not one that

3154
01:46:41,669 --> 01:46:39,040
gives you control

3155
01:46:43,350 --> 01:46:41,679
over nature what does that is when you

3156
01:46:44,390 --> 01:46:43,360
predict nature's behavior and then you

3157
01:46:46,390 --> 01:46:44,400
can put nature to

3158
01:46:47,750 --> 01:46:46,400
to work for your own benefit and that's

3159
01:46:49,750 --> 01:46:47,760
what science does

3160
01:46:51,669 --> 01:46:49,760
science is no we stole fire from the

3161
01:46:52,709 --> 01:46:51,679
gods we can put the universe to work for

3162
01:46:54,229 --> 01:46:52,719
our benefit

3163
01:46:55,990 --> 01:46:54,239
why because we can predict nature's

3164
01:46:56,629 --> 01:46:56,000
behavior do we need to know what nature

3165
01:46:59,270 --> 01:46:56,639
is

3166
01:47:01,030 --> 01:46:59,280
not the least a five-year-old kid can be

3167
01:47:02,790 --> 01:47:01,040
world champion in a computer game

3168
01:47:04,870 --> 01:47:02,800
without having any understanding of what

3169
01:47:05,990 --> 01:47:04,880
the game is all the hardware and

3170
01:47:07,830 --> 01:47:06,000
software behind that

3171
01:47:09,750 --> 01:47:07,840
the kid doesn't even know it exists

3172
01:47:11,430 --> 01:47:09,760
doesn't know what it is it doesn't care

3173
01:47:13,350 --> 01:47:11,440
does the kid know need to understand

3174
01:47:15,109 --> 01:47:13,360
that to play the game no the kid needs

3175
01:47:16,550 --> 01:47:15,119
to understand the behavior of the game

3176
01:47:18,149 --> 01:47:16,560
and then you can come master you can

3177
01:47:19,030 --> 01:47:18,159
master and win the game that's what

3178
01:47:21,910 --> 01:47:19,040
science does

3179
01:47:23,750 --> 01:47:21,920
it tells us how the game works it tells

3180
01:47:25,189 --> 01:47:23,760
us how the representations behave

3181
01:47:27,189 --> 01:47:25,199
it allows us to predict the

3182
01:47:27,830 --> 01:47:27,199
representations so we can play the game

3183
01:47:30,709 --> 01:47:27,840
and win

3184
01:47:31,189 --> 01:47:30,719
this is the hubris of control and this

3185
01:47:34,790 --> 01:47:31,199
is

3186
01:47:35,189 --> 01:47:34,800
stealing uh fire from the gods what i am

3187
01:47:37,990 --> 01:47:35,199
doing

3188
01:47:39,750 --> 01:47:38,000
gives us no control whatsoever it

3189
01:47:40,709 --> 01:47:39,760
doesn't allow us to control nature it

3190
01:47:43,189 --> 01:47:40,719
allows us to make

3191
01:47:44,229 --> 01:47:43,199
peace with our own nature and our role

3192
01:47:45,669 --> 01:47:44,239
in nature

3193
01:47:47,350 --> 01:47:45,679
what's that minor place where you and

3194
01:47:48,830 --> 01:47:47,360
hoffman disagree but you think that

3195
01:47:51,189 --> 01:47:48,840
you're going to win him over at some

3196
01:47:53,750 --> 01:47:51,199
point

3197
01:47:56,550 --> 01:47:53,760
for for dawn's theory to hold you always

3198
01:47:59,270 --> 01:47:56,560
need at least two conscious agents

3199
01:48:01,750 --> 01:47:59,280
because the dashboard for him arises

3200
01:48:03,189 --> 01:48:01,760
from an interaction

3201
01:48:05,189 --> 01:48:03,199
so you need at least two conscious

3202
01:48:08,310 --> 01:48:05,199
agents so he cannot go

3203
01:48:11,430 --> 01:48:08,320
down to one because his mathematics will

3204
01:48:13,830 --> 01:48:11,440
not work if you go down to one

3205
01:48:15,669 --> 01:48:13,840
and i my view is that that's profoundly

3206
01:48:17,590 --> 01:48:15,679
dissatisfying because it seems to

3207
01:48:19,910 --> 01:48:17,600
arbitrarily require

3208
01:48:21,990 --> 01:48:19,920
the existence of two completely

3209
01:48:23,830 --> 01:48:22,000
unrelated things

3210
01:48:26,310 --> 01:48:23,840
why would there be two completely

3211
01:48:29,350 --> 01:48:26,320
unrelated things existing i mean it

3212
01:48:30,870 --> 01:48:29,360
sort of it violates my my whole sense of

3213
01:48:33,189 --> 01:48:30,880
plausibility

3214
01:48:35,030 --> 01:48:33,199
and my argument to him is that you he

3215
01:48:37,350 --> 01:48:35,040
can make the mathematics work

3216
01:48:39,030 --> 01:48:37,360
even if it goes down to one one

3217
01:48:40,950 --> 01:48:39,040
conscious agent

3218
01:48:43,109 --> 01:48:40,960
but then he has to use the mathematics

3219
01:48:46,070 --> 01:48:43,119
of vibration which is what underlies

3220
01:48:48,470 --> 01:48:46,080
string theory m theory if you have only

3221
01:48:51,109 --> 01:48:48,480
one field you can still recover

3222
01:48:51,910 --> 01:48:51,119
all complexity from that by imagining

3223
01:48:54,870 --> 01:48:51,920
that field

3224
01:48:56,709 --> 01:48:54,880
as a vibrating surface a

3225
01:48:58,629 --> 01:48:56,719
multi-dimensional hyper-dimensional

3226
01:48:59,990 --> 01:48:58,639
surface but a surface nonetheless

3227
01:49:02,709 --> 01:49:00,000
that moves according to different

3228
01:49:04,470 --> 01:49:02,719
patterns of excitation if you have that

3229
01:49:06,390 --> 01:49:04,480
you can recover any complexity any

3230
01:49:07,590 --> 01:49:06,400
arbitrary level of complexity you need

3231
01:49:09,830 --> 01:49:07,600
to make sense of nature

3232
01:49:11,350 --> 01:49:09,840
by applying the mathematics of vibration

3233
01:49:12,149 --> 01:49:11,360
as opposed to the mathematics of

3234
01:49:14,709 --> 01:49:12,159
interaction

3235
01:49:15,830 --> 01:49:14,719
and you can reduce the mathematics of

3236
01:49:17,910 --> 01:49:15,840
interaction

3237
01:49:19,510 --> 01:49:17,920
to the mathematics of vibration if you

3238
01:49:20,790 --> 01:49:19,520
have two wavefronts that come and

3239
01:49:23,109 --> 01:49:20,800
interfere with one another

3240
01:49:25,510 --> 01:49:23,119
constructively of or destructively

3241
01:49:27,589 --> 01:49:25,520
that's an interaction but you can reduce

3242
01:49:30,790 --> 01:49:27,599
that to the one surface where

3243
01:49:32,470 --> 01:49:30,800
those wave fronts are are moving so you

3244
01:49:33,910 --> 01:49:32,480
can reduce the mathematics of

3245
01:49:34,870 --> 01:49:33,920
interaction to the mathematics of

3246
01:49:38,070 --> 01:49:34,880
vibration

3247
01:49:39,990 --> 01:49:38,080
granted things become a lot more complex

3248
01:49:41,830 --> 01:49:40,000
and that's what m theory is struggling

3249
01:49:42,310 --> 01:49:41,840
with there are so many free parameters

3250
01:49:44,550 --> 01:49:42,320
in that

3251
01:49:46,310 --> 01:49:44,560
horrendously complex mathematics that

3252
01:49:48,390 --> 01:49:46,320
they cannot make any

3253
01:49:50,310 --> 01:49:48,400
discerning prediction it's too complex

3254
01:49:53,910 --> 01:49:50,320
to wrap one's head about it

3255
01:49:56,709 --> 01:49:53,920
so i think it's in practice laudable

3256
01:49:58,470 --> 01:49:56,719
that don is restricting himself to the

3257
01:50:00,790 --> 01:49:58,480
mathematics of interaction

3258
01:50:03,030 --> 01:50:00,800
because that makes his work and the work

3259
01:50:06,550 --> 01:50:03,040
of his team

3260
01:50:07,109 --> 01:50:06,560
more feasible it allows us to make

3261
01:50:10,229 --> 01:50:07,119
progress

3262
01:50:11,910 --> 01:50:10,239
so i applaud that but i also think at

3263
01:50:14,229 --> 01:50:11,920
the very end

3264
01:50:15,669 --> 01:50:14,239
for them to take that very last step

3265
01:50:17,510 --> 01:50:15,679
which will not happen in our

3266
01:50:19,109 --> 01:50:17,520
lifetimes or in the lifetimes of our

3267
01:50:22,629 --> 01:50:19,119
grandkids this is far off

3268
01:50:25,430 --> 01:50:22,639
but to take that last very last step

3269
01:50:26,950 --> 01:50:25,440
to the most part parsimonious view of

3270
01:50:28,149 --> 01:50:26,960
nature we can have

3271
01:50:29,910 --> 01:50:28,159
we will have to translate that

3272
01:50:31,910 --> 01:50:29,920
mathematics into the mathematics of

3273
01:50:34,550 --> 01:50:31,920
vibration which m theories ahead

3274
01:50:36,350 --> 01:50:34,560
is is already ahead of us doing except

3275
01:50:39,430 --> 01:50:36,360
that they think of this

3276
01:50:41,350 --> 01:50:39,440
hyperdimensional brain uh

3277
01:50:43,270 --> 01:50:41,360
they call it a brain of m theory they

3278
01:50:45,430 --> 01:50:43,280
think of that as something that is not

3279
01:50:47,430 --> 01:50:45,440
mental i would argue to you that

3280
01:50:49,109 --> 01:50:47,440
that is just an aspect of mentality what

3281
01:50:51,189 --> 01:50:49,119
they are describing is mind

3282
01:50:52,229 --> 01:50:51,199
space itself is mind you want to

3283
01:50:55,990 --> 01:50:52,239
visualize

3284
01:50:58,470 --> 01:50:56,000
space and all the things that

3285
01:51:00,950 --> 01:50:58,480
pop into existence within space as the

3286
01:51:03,430 --> 01:51:00,960
patterns of vibration

3287
01:51:04,870 --> 01:51:03,440
empty space is the lake when it's when

3288
01:51:07,510 --> 01:51:04,880
it's not rippling

3289
01:51:09,030 --> 01:51:07,520
objects and all the dance of existence

3290
01:51:11,669 --> 01:51:09,040
are the ripples of that lake

3291
01:51:13,350 --> 01:51:11,679
mind is empty space and empty space

3292
01:51:16,629 --> 01:51:13,360
there is only one conceptually

3293
01:51:19,189 --> 01:51:16,639
so i think don't well his successors

3294
01:51:19,990 --> 01:51:19,199
and the successors of his successors i

3295
01:51:22,070 --> 01:51:20,000
think ultimately

3296
01:51:23,669 --> 01:51:22,080
we will arrive at that conclusion from a

3297
01:51:25,270 --> 01:51:23,679
scientific perspective

3298
01:51:27,350 --> 01:51:25,280
i think philosophy can arrive at this

3299
01:51:29,430 --> 01:51:27,360
conclusion today the limitation is that

3300
01:51:32,709 --> 01:51:29,440
philosophy cannot predict behavior

3301
01:51:34,950 --> 01:51:32,719
and dawn if he can

3302
01:51:37,270 --> 01:51:34,960
port the theoretical apparatus of

3303
01:51:38,149 --> 01:51:37,280
science to the mathematics of conscious

3304
01:51:41,430 --> 01:51:38,159
agents

3305
01:51:46,790 --> 01:51:44,950
a fundamental step a fantastic step

3306
01:51:48,550 --> 01:51:46,800
forward in our understanding of nature a

3307
01:51:51,830 --> 01:51:48,560
step that philosophy alone cannot do

3308
01:51:52,470 --> 01:51:51,840
science needs to do that so i applaud

3309
01:51:56,470 --> 01:51:52,480
him

3310
01:51:57,830 --> 01:51:56,480
one-on-one conversations that you know

3311
01:52:00,070 --> 01:51:57,840
at the end of the day you will go to

3312
01:52:03,109 --> 01:52:00,080
vibrations because philosophically

3313
01:52:05,270 --> 01:52:03,119
metaphysically speaking that's the only

3314
01:52:06,709 --> 01:52:05,280
tenable position for you to be in you

3315
01:52:09,750 --> 01:52:06,719
have to go down to oneness

3316
01:52:10,470 --> 01:52:09,760
otherwise you have an arbitrary

3317
01:52:11,910 --> 01:52:10,480
postulate

3318
01:52:14,149 --> 01:52:11,920
of the existence of completely

3319
01:52:15,910 --> 01:52:14,159
independent things interacting with one

3320
01:52:17,430 --> 01:52:15,920
another why the hell would nature be

3321
01:52:21,990 --> 01:52:17,440
like this you know

3322
01:52:25,430 --> 01:52:24,390
i'm sure you overlapped ninety percent

3323
01:52:29,030 --> 01:52:25,440
well

3324
01:52:31,589 --> 01:52:29,040
my relationship with deepak you know

3325
01:52:33,669 --> 01:52:31,599
we never compared notes uh on an

3326
01:52:37,109 --> 01:52:33,679
analytical perspective

3327
01:52:39,430 --> 01:52:37,119
um because i don't think he's really

3328
01:52:41,669 --> 01:52:39,440
interested in that he's interested in

3329
01:52:43,669 --> 01:52:41,679
enriching people's hearts people's

3330
01:52:43,990 --> 01:52:43,679
intuitions he's interested in helping

3331
01:52:47,350 --> 01:52:44,000
people

3332
01:52:50,550 --> 01:52:47,360
leave more healthily a more

3333
01:52:51,750 --> 01:52:50,560
conformity with natural laws he is

3334
01:52:54,709 --> 01:52:51,760
interested in reaching

3335
01:52:56,390 --> 01:52:54,719
uh the common people for whom all these

3336
01:52:58,149 --> 01:52:56,400
intellectual abstractions are just that

3337
01:53:00,709 --> 01:52:58,159
irrelevant abstractions

3338
01:53:01,270 --> 01:53:00,719
which is the vast majority of people and

3339
01:53:05,030 --> 01:53:01,280
and

3340
01:53:06,229 --> 01:53:05,040
significant impact in the world much

3341
01:53:07,830 --> 01:53:06,239
more not only because

3342
01:53:09,350 --> 01:53:07,840
he's more famous than i am no i don't

3343
01:53:11,350 --> 01:53:09,360
mean that i mean that

3344
01:53:12,950 --> 01:53:11,360
he is speaking about things that are

3345
01:53:14,870 --> 01:53:12,960
more relevant

3346
01:53:16,790 --> 01:53:14,880
to most people than what i am speaking

3347
01:53:18,790 --> 01:53:16,800
about i think the relevance of what i'm

3348
01:53:21,030 --> 01:53:18,800
doing to most people

3349
01:53:22,709 --> 01:53:21,040
comes only later because our cultural

3350
01:53:24,470 --> 01:53:22,719
narrative

3351
01:53:26,550 --> 01:53:24,480
makes people depressed based on the

3352
01:53:27,270 --> 01:53:26,560
wrong reasons they they adopt a

3353
01:53:30,470 --> 01:53:27,280
materialist

3354
01:53:32,149 --> 01:53:30,480
story uh uh and that that leads to

3355
01:53:34,550 --> 01:53:32,159
existential nihilism

3356
01:53:37,109 --> 01:53:34,560
um and that story is we have no reason

3357
01:53:38,790 --> 01:53:37,119
to believe it to be true so ultimately i

3358
01:53:40,950 --> 01:53:38,800
i'm doing this for people's hearts as

3359
01:53:42,470 --> 01:53:40,960
well but it's indirect and in the case

3360
01:53:44,550 --> 01:53:42,480
of deepak it's much more

3361
01:53:46,550 --> 01:53:44,560
direct so i never compared notes

3362
01:53:47,109 --> 01:53:46,560
analytically with him all i can tell you

3363
01:53:49,270 --> 01:53:47,119
is that

3364
01:53:50,229 --> 01:53:49,280
i never heard nonsense from deepak

3365
01:53:53,990 --> 01:53:50,239
chopra

3366
01:53:56,390 --> 01:53:54,000
um i see him as a wise person

3367
01:53:57,589 --> 01:53:56,400
uh who is trying to do something good uh

3368
01:54:00,629 --> 01:53:57,599
for the world

3369
01:54:02,470 --> 01:54:00,639
um certainly a very positive

3370
01:54:03,990 --> 01:54:02,480
force in the world and nothing that he

3371
01:54:05,830 --> 01:54:04,000
ever said

3372
01:54:07,430 --> 01:54:05,840
contradicts my thinking and i and i

3373
01:54:09,270 --> 01:54:07,440
think the other way around

3374
01:54:10,709 --> 01:54:09,280
applies as well i will let him speak for

3375
01:54:13,109 --> 01:54:10,719
that but

3376
01:54:14,870 --> 01:54:13,119
nothing he he ever said contradicts my

3377
01:54:17,189 --> 01:54:14,880
view of reality on the contrary

3378
01:54:18,870 --> 01:54:17,199
we seem to have a very natural intuitive

3379
01:54:21,589 --> 01:54:18,880
understanding we don't need to compare

3380
01:54:21,990 --> 01:54:21,599
analytical notes to know that we are

3381
01:54:24,470 --> 01:54:22,000
both

3382
01:54:25,030 --> 01:54:24,480
going down the same the same direction

3383
01:54:26,870 --> 01:54:25,040
you know

3384
01:54:28,790 --> 01:54:26,880
we're both trying to achieve the same

3385
01:54:30,870 --> 01:54:28,800
thing in different uh

3386
01:54:33,189 --> 01:54:30,880
ways one more immediate than the other

3387
01:54:36,790 --> 01:54:33,199
but there is this

3388
01:54:38,310 --> 01:54:36,800
natural resonance that doesn't require

3389
01:54:40,470 --> 01:54:38,320
us to bother about

3390
01:54:42,310 --> 01:54:40,480
comparing notes if you know what i mean

3391
01:54:44,629 --> 01:54:42,320
i like him a lot

3392
01:54:47,109 --> 01:54:44,639
where do you agree or where do you agree

3393
01:54:48,870 --> 01:54:47,119
and disagree with jordan peterson

3394
01:54:51,189 --> 01:54:48,880
i don't know about i don't know enough

3395
01:54:54,390 --> 01:54:51,199
about peterson to

3396
01:54:56,550 --> 01:54:54,400
to pass judgment i'm very happy to pass

3397
01:54:59,189 --> 01:54:56,560
judgment i don't refrain from it i

3398
01:54:59,910 --> 01:54:59,199
am known for for being sharp in this

3399
01:55:02,629 --> 01:54:59,920
regard

3400
01:55:03,589 --> 01:55:02,639
but i i do want to pass judgment only on

3401
01:55:06,070 --> 01:55:03,599
things at least

3402
01:55:06,629 --> 01:55:06,080
i think i know enough to pass judgment

3403
01:55:10,709 --> 01:55:06,639
on

3404
01:55:12,709 --> 01:55:10,719
know he's a jungian so

3405
01:55:14,550 --> 01:55:12,719
that's a point of commonality so he has

3406
01:55:19,510 --> 01:55:14,560
my sympathy based on that alone

3407
01:55:21,030 --> 01:55:19,520
where do you disagree with jung i don't

3408
01:55:23,270 --> 01:55:21,040
i'm publishing a book in a couple of

3409
01:55:24,870 --> 01:55:23,280
weeks titled decoding young's

3410
01:55:25,830 --> 01:55:24,880
metaphysics in which i try to make

3411
01:55:27,750 --> 01:55:25,840
explicit

3412
01:55:29,589 --> 01:55:27,760
what jung's underlying metaphysical

3413
01:55:32,950 --> 01:55:29,599
thought was throughout his

3414
01:55:35,990 --> 01:55:32,960
psychology works i think jung was a

3415
01:55:36,790 --> 01:55:36,000
flat out idealist he said the collective

3416
01:55:38,470 --> 01:55:36,800
unconscious

3417
01:55:40,390 --> 01:55:38,480
and matter in nature are one and the

3418
01:55:42,070 --> 01:55:40,400
same thing by which he meant one is the

3419
01:55:43,350 --> 01:55:42,080
image of the other

3420
01:55:45,270 --> 01:55:43,360
matter is what the collective

3421
01:55:45,990 --> 01:55:45,280
unconscious beyond your personal self

3422
01:55:48,310 --> 01:55:46,000
looks like when

3423
01:55:49,270 --> 01:55:48,320
observed from across a dissociative

3424
01:55:52,149 --> 01:55:49,280
boundary which

3425
01:55:52,470 --> 01:55:52,159
defines our individual mind um so i

3426
01:55:56,390 --> 01:55:52,480
don't

3427
01:56:00,310 --> 01:55:59,189
and there are two intellectuals i

3428
01:56:03,270 --> 01:56:00,320
consider the

3429
01:56:04,070 --> 01:56:03,280
most important of the 20th century and i

3430
01:56:07,189 --> 01:56:04,080
i'm not

3431
01:56:08,149 --> 01:56:07,199
quite sure which one but i think thomas

3432
01:56:11,270 --> 01:56:08,159
kuhn

3433
01:56:14,470 --> 01:56:11,280
and koyung in the 20th century were the

3434
01:56:18,390 --> 01:56:14,480
two most important intellectuals

3435
01:56:21,109 --> 01:56:18,400
they provided the most indispensable

3436
01:56:22,790 --> 01:56:21,119
important crucial insights that we

3437
01:56:25,910 --> 01:56:22,800
needed then and need now

3438
01:56:29,030 --> 01:56:25,920
perhaps more than back then

3439
01:56:31,669 --> 01:56:29,040
so i i i regard him with

3440
01:56:33,510 --> 01:56:31,679
the highest respect i think he was a

3441
01:56:37,030 --> 01:56:33,520
sage he he saw

3442
01:56:40,310 --> 01:56:37,040
way beyond what most people could see

3443
01:56:43,350 --> 01:56:40,320
um and i put kun on the same level with

3444
01:56:47,109 --> 01:56:43,360
him not because kun has the same

3445
01:56:49,669 --> 01:56:47,119
breath and depth of insight

3446
01:56:50,550 --> 01:56:49,679
as young jung had such a breath of

3447
01:56:52,709 --> 01:56:50,560
insights about

3448
01:56:54,229 --> 01:56:52,719
every aspect of the human condition it

3449
01:56:55,990 --> 01:56:54,239
that it's unmatchable

3450
01:56:57,589 --> 01:56:56,000
i put i put thomas kuhn together with

3451
01:57:01,030 --> 01:56:57,599
him because kuhn had

3452
01:57:04,390 --> 01:57:01,040
one insight about one thing that was

3453
01:57:05,430 --> 01:57:04,400
so foundational so devastatingly

3454
01:57:07,350 --> 01:57:05,440
important that that

3455
01:57:08,950 --> 01:57:07,360
one thing alone is enough for me to put

3456
01:57:11,189 --> 01:57:08,960
him on the same height

3457
01:57:12,470 --> 01:57:11,199
as jung but if you are care if you care

3458
01:57:14,870 --> 01:57:12,480
about breath

3459
01:57:16,390 --> 01:57:14,880
and relevance for the human condition in

3460
01:57:19,589 --> 01:57:16,400
our everyday life

3461
01:57:22,709 --> 01:57:19,599
jung is unbeatable and he went so deep

3462
01:57:26,550 --> 01:57:22,719
that the vast majority of his peers

3463
01:57:28,790 --> 01:57:26,560
cannot even conceive

3464
01:57:29,910 --> 01:57:28,800
of what he saw and he he did see it he

3465
01:57:32,470 --> 01:57:29,920
didn't hallucinate it

3466
01:57:34,229 --> 01:57:32,480
he saw it right there he pinned it down

3467
01:57:37,350 --> 01:57:34,239
but most of his peers are

3468
01:57:40,149 --> 01:57:37,360
too short-sighted uh to even take that

3469
01:57:40,470 --> 01:57:40,159
level of depth seriously they think jung

3470
01:57:45,270 --> 01:57:40,480
was

3471
01:57:46,790 --> 01:57:45,280
which doesn't contradict what i just

3472
01:57:48,070 --> 01:57:46,800
said

3473
01:57:50,550 --> 01:57:48,080
what do you make of penrose's

3474
01:57:53,189 --> 01:57:50,560
orchestrated objective reduction

3475
01:57:54,790 --> 01:57:53,199
have you heard of his collapse theory

3476
01:57:58,629 --> 01:57:54,800
because he's one of the materialist

3477
01:58:00,390 --> 01:57:58,639
physicalists that don't think our qualia

3478
01:58:02,149 --> 01:58:00,400
and truth and other concepts are

3479
01:58:03,750 --> 01:58:02,159
arbitrary but in fact they're

3480
01:58:06,470 --> 01:58:03,760
members of a platonic world somehow

3481
01:58:08,870 --> 01:58:06,480
embedded at each space time point

3482
01:58:10,790 --> 01:58:08,880
yeah look let me preface it by saying i

3483
01:58:13,589 --> 01:58:10,800
have great respect for sir roger i think

3484
01:58:15,589 --> 01:58:13,599
his nobel prize this year

3485
01:58:17,189 --> 01:58:15,599
was too late it should have come a lot

3486
01:58:19,669 --> 01:58:17,199
earlier

3487
01:58:20,310 --> 01:58:19,679
and i hold him in the highest regard he

3488
01:58:22,709 --> 01:58:20,320
and i

3489
01:58:24,790 --> 01:58:22,719
were featured in a dutch documentary

3490
01:58:28,709 --> 01:58:24,800
only of a couple of weeks ago

3491
01:58:32,629 --> 01:58:31,830
but i do sense and that may have to do

3492
01:58:34,950 --> 01:58:32,639
with

3493
01:58:36,229 --> 01:58:34,960
the time during which he had his peak he

3494
01:58:38,950 --> 01:58:36,239
had his prime

3495
01:58:41,030 --> 01:58:38,960
which was a time in which even a

3496
01:58:42,870 --> 01:58:41,040
conversation about the plausibility of

3497
01:58:46,070 --> 01:58:42,880
anything that's not materialism

3498
01:58:47,589 --> 01:58:46,080
uh was not conceivable you know now we

3499
01:58:47,990 --> 01:58:47,599
can have this conversation you know you

3500
01:58:49,510 --> 01:58:48,000
and i can

3501
01:58:51,350 --> 01:58:49,520
have this conversation today and

3502
01:58:53,750 --> 01:58:51,360
although the majority majority may

3503
01:58:55,510 --> 01:58:53,760
disagree with me

3504
01:58:58,149 --> 01:58:55,520
the reasonable majority will not

3505
01:58:59,669 --> 01:58:58,159
consider me a nut case

3506
01:59:01,589 --> 01:58:59,679
because they see that well there are

3507
01:59:03,350 --> 01:59:01,599
things that materialism can't make sense

3508
01:59:06,149 --> 01:59:03,360
of arguably everything so

3509
01:59:07,350 --> 01:59:06,159
you know the discussion the debate is

3510
01:59:09,109 --> 01:59:07,360
legitimate

3511
01:59:11,030 --> 01:59:09,119
but it was not in the time when sir

3512
01:59:12,629 --> 01:59:11,040
roger was in his prime so

3513
01:59:14,149 --> 01:59:12,639
i'm prefacing this this way because i

3514
01:59:16,149 --> 01:59:14,159
don't want to get across as somebody

3515
01:59:19,430 --> 01:59:16,159
unfairly critical of him

3516
01:59:23,510 --> 01:59:19,440
but i will say this i think

3517
01:59:26,550 --> 01:59:23,520
a lot of his work tries to reconcile

3518
01:59:27,669 --> 01:59:26,560
a materialist mode of thinking with the

3519
01:59:29,270 --> 01:59:27,679
recognition

3520
01:59:31,030 --> 01:59:29,280
that there are things that can't be

3521
01:59:32,950 --> 01:59:31,040
reduced to materialism

3522
01:59:34,229 --> 01:59:32,960
and he tries to accommodate it all in a

3523
01:59:36,709 --> 01:59:34,239
sort of trialism

3524
01:59:38,070 --> 01:59:36,719
it's not even dualism so for him there

3525
01:59:39,669 --> 01:59:38,080
is the physical world there is the

3526
01:59:41,270 --> 01:59:39,679
mental world and then there is the world

3527
01:59:43,109 --> 01:59:41,280
of the platonic values

3528
01:59:44,870 --> 01:59:43,119
and they are not the same and all three

3529
01:59:48,390 --> 01:59:44,880
of them are fundamental

3530
01:59:52,550 --> 01:59:48,400
and i think that's a step forward from

3531
01:59:56,470 --> 01:59:54,390
but in another sense it's a step

3532
01:59:57,990 --> 01:59:56,480
backwards because it violates the

3533
01:59:59,430 --> 01:59:58,000
principle of parsimony

3534
02:00:01,270 --> 01:59:59,440
i want to talk to you about that because

3535
02:00:02,950 --> 02:00:01,280
this principle that we should be frugal

3536
02:00:05,830 --> 02:00:02,960
with our assumptions

3537
02:00:07,910 --> 02:00:05,840
i don't buy that necessarily i'm more of

3538
02:00:09,270 --> 02:00:07,920
the feynman mindset that nature is as it

3539
02:00:10,550 --> 02:00:09,280
is maybe it's an onion maybe it's of

3540
02:00:13,109 --> 02:00:10,560
infinite complexity

3541
02:00:14,870 --> 02:00:13,119
so who are we to impose this miserly

3542
02:00:17,669 --> 02:00:14,880
quality when it comes to the axioms

3543
02:00:19,109 --> 02:00:17,679
we don't know so why why is it that i

3544
02:00:22,629 --> 02:00:19,119
understand how it's intellectually

3545
02:00:24,950 --> 02:00:22,639
more comprehensible as well as it's

3546
02:00:25,990 --> 02:00:24,960
fun and beautiful when it's smaller but

3547
02:00:28,470 --> 02:00:26,000
i don't see any reason why

3548
02:00:29,990 --> 02:00:28,480
nature itself shouldn't be slightly more

3549
02:00:33,270 --> 02:00:30,000
complicated than just one

3550
02:00:35,990 --> 02:00:33,280
oneness this is an excellent question so

3551
02:00:37,750 --> 02:00:36,000
let's bite this bullet head on and not

3552
02:00:40,470 --> 02:00:37,760
hide from it

3553
02:00:41,189 --> 02:00:40,480
science does not need to make many

3554
02:00:43,589 --> 02:00:41,199
assumptions

3555
02:00:45,350 --> 02:00:43,599
ultimately does not need to make any

3556
02:00:46,070 --> 02:00:45,360
because it's studying the behavior of

3557
02:00:47,430 --> 02:00:46,080
nature

3558
02:00:49,189 --> 02:00:47,440
and when it comes to the behavior of

3559
02:00:50,790 --> 02:00:49,199
nature you don't need to assume you need

3560
02:00:53,109 --> 02:00:50,800
to set up an experiment

3561
02:00:54,870 --> 02:00:53,119
and nature will answer your question by

3562
02:00:57,030 --> 02:00:54,880
behaving in a certain way

3563
02:00:59,030 --> 02:00:57,040
and the question is settled if you can

3564
02:00:59,589 --> 02:00:59,040
repeat that experiment done by different

3565
02:01:01,189 --> 02:00:59,599
groups

3566
02:01:03,109 --> 02:01:01,199
then you ensure that you eliminate the

3567
02:01:04,870 --> 02:01:03,119
subjective aspect from it

3568
02:01:07,669 --> 02:01:04,880
and there is your answer you don't need

3569
02:01:09,990 --> 02:01:07,679
to postulate or speculate or imagine

3570
02:01:11,270 --> 02:01:10,000
answer has behaved that nature has

3571
02:01:13,189 --> 02:01:11,280
behaved in a certain way

3572
02:01:14,790 --> 02:01:13,199
that gives you the answer so when

3573
02:01:16,470 --> 02:01:14,800
feynman said

3574
02:01:18,070 --> 02:01:16,480
use the onion metaphor it would have

3575
02:01:20,790 --> 02:01:18,080
been more accurately

3576
02:01:21,990 --> 02:01:20,800
if i could paraphrase him to say if

3577
02:01:25,030 --> 02:01:22,000
nature behaves like

3578
02:01:26,390 --> 02:01:25,040
an onion then the onion is the best

3579
02:01:28,390 --> 02:01:26,400
predictive model

3580
02:01:29,669 --> 02:01:28,400
and that's how it is that's that that's

3581
02:01:31,270 --> 02:01:29,679
how things are

3582
02:01:33,030 --> 02:01:31,280
and there is no need to postulate

3583
02:01:35,910 --> 02:01:33,040
oneness because the behavior

3584
02:01:36,790 --> 02:01:35,920
is best predicted by imagining it as

3585
02:01:39,030 --> 02:01:36,800
anonymia

3586
02:01:41,030 --> 02:01:39,040
and i agree completely with him when it

3587
02:01:43,350 --> 02:01:41,040
comes to science

3588
02:01:44,870 --> 02:01:43,360
the assumptions have a very very

3589
02:01:46,310 --> 02:01:44,880
restricted role

3590
02:01:48,070 --> 02:01:46,320
make the experiment if you have the

3591
02:01:49,430 --> 02:01:48,080
technology to do that we don't have

3592
02:01:51,990 --> 02:01:49,440
the technology to do a whole lot of

3593
02:01:55,990 --> 02:01:52,000
experiments that he would like to make

3594
02:01:59,750 --> 02:01:56,000
but the answer from a first principles

3595
02:02:01,510 --> 02:01:59,760
uh perspective is there in potentia

3596
02:02:02,950 --> 02:02:01,520
it doesn't require your assumptions run

3597
02:02:04,310 --> 02:02:02,960
the experiment and the behavior of

3598
02:02:06,709 --> 02:02:04,320
nature will give you the answers

3599
02:02:07,830 --> 02:02:06,719
the answer is about how nature behaves

3600
02:02:10,310 --> 02:02:07,840
so if it behaves a lot

3601
02:02:11,270 --> 02:02:10,320
like an onion then it is like an onion

3602
02:02:12,709 --> 02:02:11,280
and the

3603
02:02:15,510 --> 02:02:12,719
the question is settled i agree with

3604
02:02:16,390 --> 02:02:15,520
fine when it comes when it comes however

3605
02:02:20,550 --> 02:02:16,400
to what nature

3606
02:02:22,790 --> 02:02:20,560
is not how it behaves but what nature is

3607
02:02:24,390 --> 02:02:22,800
experiment doesn't settle the question

3608
02:02:26,149 --> 02:02:24,400
it does inform the question

3609
02:02:28,149 --> 02:02:26,159
if you have a hypothesis about what

3610
02:02:31,109 --> 02:02:28,159
nature is and according to that

3611
02:02:32,950 --> 02:02:31,119
hypothesis nature can't behave in a

3612
02:02:33,270 --> 02:02:32,960
given way and then you run an experiment

3613
02:02:37,030 --> 02:02:33,280
and

3614
02:02:39,189 --> 02:02:37,040
way then that hypothesis

3615
02:02:41,589 --> 02:02:39,199
is off the table but there is a whole

3616
02:02:43,270 --> 02:02:41,599
number of hypotheses

3617
02:02:45,990 --> 02:02:43,280
that are not contradicted by nature's

3618
02:02:48,629 --> 02:02:46,000
behavior so an experiment a scientific

3619
02:02:49,510 --> 02:02:48,639
experiment doesn't settle metaphysical

3620
02:02:54,149 --> 02:02:49,520
questions

3621
02:02:56,229 --> 02:02:54,159
more educated metaphysician

3622
02:02:58,310 --> 02:02:56,239
by paying attention to science but

3623
02:03:00,470 --> 02:02:58,320
science alone cannot settle

3624
02:03:02,390 --> 02:03:00,480
a metaphysical question unless it's a it

3625
02:03:04,470 --> 02:03:02,400
settles it in a negative it can exclude

3626
02:03:05,910 --> 02:03:04,480
possibilities but it cannot settle it in

3627
02:03:08,870 --> 02:03:05,920
the positive by saying

3628
02:03:10,550 --> 02:03:08,880
this is the truth no scientific

3629
02:03:13,109 --> 02:03:10,560
experiment can settle the question

3630
02:03:14,390 --> 02:03:13,119
positively only by an elimination

3631
02:03:17,350 --> 02:03:14,400
because the answer

3632
02:03:18,629 --> 02:03:17,360
in the form of a behavior doesn't settle

3633
02:03:22,310 --> 02:03:18,639
the question of what

3634
02:03:24,229 --> 02:03:22,320
that which behaves is in and of itself

3635
02:03:25,510 --> 02:03:24,239
now what does this have to do with not

3636
02:03:27,109 --> 02:03:25,520
accepting three

3637
02:03:28,550 --> 02:03:27,119
worlds getting there getting there in

3638
02:03:29,830 --> 02:03:28,560
there sorry sorry it's a convoluted

3639
02:03:33,189 --> 02:03:29,840
answer but i'm getting there

3640
02:03:34,870 --> 02:03:33,199
so if you understand that science cannot

3641
02:03:37,589 --> 02:03:34,880
settle metaphysical questions

3642
02:03:39,350 --> 02:03:37,599
then what criteria do you have to judge

3643
02:03:40,950 --> 02:03:39,360
which metaphysical hypothesis is

3644
02:03:43,189 --> 02:03:40,960
superior

3645
02:03:45,910 --> 02:03:43,199
the criteria are different and they are

3646
02:03:49,350 --> 02:03:45,920
and i enumerate them to you

3647
02:03:51,350 --> 02:03:49,360
internal logical consistency

3648
02:03:53,589 --> 02:03:51,360
empirical adequacy in other words

3649
02:03:54,470 --> 02:03:53,599
empiricism cannot positively settle the

3650
02:03:56,950 --> 02:03:54,480
question

3651
02:03:57,669 --> 02:03:56,960
but your metaphysical theory cannot

3652
02:04:00,229 --> 02:03:57,679
contradict

3653
02:04:01,990 --> 02:04:00,239
observations otherwise it's just wrong

3654
02:04:03,350 --> 02:04:02,000
so internal logical consistency

3655
02:04:06,629 --> 02:04:03,360
empirical adequacy

3656
02:04:07,109 --> 02:04:06,639
coherence is important and coherence has

3657
02:04:08,470 --> 02:04:07,119
to do

3658
02:04:10,229 --> 02:04:08,480
not with the internal logical

3659
02:04:12,550 --> 02:04:10,239
consistency of your theory

3660
02:04:14,950 --> 02:04:12,560
but how it coheres with everything else

3661
02:04:18,229 --> 02:04:14,960
we do know

3662
02:04:22,069 --> 02:04:18,239
and there is this other great guiding

3663
02:04:24,790 --> 02:04:22,079
principle which is conceptual parsimony

3664
02:04:26,709 --> 02:04:24,800
now i will grant to you that there is

3665
02:04:28,390 --> 02:04:26,719
nothing etched in stone

3666
02:04:30,069 --> 02:04:28,400
saying that nature has to be the

3667
02:04:32,069 --> 02:04:30,079
simplest version of itself

3668
02:04:33,350 --> 02:04:32,079
it's not etched in stone it's a

3669
02:04:35,990 --> 02:04:33,360
subjective value

3670
02:04:38,069 --> 02:04:36,000
but i would argue to you that if we

3671
02:04:40,229 --> 02:04:38,079
ignore this value

3672
02:04:41,830 --> 02:04:40,239
we are off to the races we will be in a

3673
02:04:45,589 --> 02:04:41,840
mad house in no time

3674
02:04:48,149 --> 02:04:45,599
because you see everything

3675
02:04:49,669 --> 02:04:48,159
can have countless more complex

3676
02:04:51,510 --> 02:04:49,679
explanations

3677
02:04:53,990 --> 02:04:51,520
if you wake up in the morning and you

3678
02:04:56,390 --> 02:04:54,000
see footprints in your backyard

3679
02:04:57,109 --> 02:04:56,400
i mentioned two possible explanations

3680
02:05:00,069 --> 02:04:57,119
for that

3681
02:05:01,350 --> 02:05:00,079
one a burglar trying tried to invade

3682
02:05:03,430 --> 02:05:01,360
your house didn't succeed

3683
02:05:04,709 --> 02:05:03,440
went away and left the footprints behind

3684
02:05:08,069 --> 02:05:04,719
explanation a

3685
02:05:11,589 --> 02:05:08,079
explanation b aliens from the pleiades

3686
02:05:14,390 --> 02:05:11,599
came through a hyperspace

3687
02:05:15,910 --> 02:05:14,400
landed in your neighbor's backyard stole

3688
02:05:17,589 --> 02:05:15,920
your neighbor's shoes

3689
02:05:19,109 --> 02:05:17,599
jumped over the fence and went for a

3690
02:05:21,430 --> 02:05:19,119
straw in your backyard

3691
02:05:23,270 --> 02:05:21,440
then jumped back back put your

3692
02:05:25,510 --> 02:05:23,280
neighbor's shoes back where they were

3693
02:05:27,430 --> 02:05:25,520
boarded their spaceship and went back to

3694
02:05:29,990 --> 02:05:27,440
the pleiades

3695
02:05:30,790 --> 02:05:30,000
the second explanation explanation b

3696
02:05:32,950 --> 02:05:30,800
accounts

3697
02:05:34,310 --> 02:05:32,960
for the observations just as well as the

3698
02:05:38,790 --> 02:05:34,320
first

3699
02:05:41,270 --> 02:05:38,800
choose a instead of b

3700
02:05:42,470 --> 02:05:41,280
because b is more conceptually

3701
02:05:46,629 --> 02:05:42,480
parsimonious

3702
02:05:48,709 --> 02:05:46,639
it requires less assumptions you see

3703
02:05:50,550 --> 02:05:48,719
this sounds like a argument for the

3704
02:05:52,310 --> 02:05:50,560
functionalism of having a small amount

3705
02:05:53,430 --> 02:05:52,320
of assumptions but not as to the

3706
02:05:56,950 --> 02:05:53,440
ontological

3707
02:05:59,990 --> 02:05:56,960
correct correct i'll admit that yeah

3708
02:06:03,510 --> 02:06:00,000
but i admit to that while emphasizing

3709
02:06:07,350 --> 02:06:03,520
how important it is

3710
02:06:10,310 --> 02:06:07,360
if we don't hold to conceptual parsimony

3711
02:06:12,229 --> 02:06:10,320
as a value for identifying the best

3712
02:06:13,669 --> 02:06:12,239
metaphysical options

3713
02:06:15,589 --> 02:06:13,679
forget science science can those

3714
02:06:15,990 --> 02:06:15,599
questions are settled by experiment we

3715
02:06:18,629 --> 02:06:16,000
are talking

3716
02:06:20,629 --> 02:06:18,639
about being here about metaphysics if we

3717
02:06:22,390 --> 02:06:20,639
ignore conceptual parsimony

3718
02:06:23,910 --> 02:06:22,400
we have to embrace the flying spaghetti

3719
02:06:25,669 --> 02:06:23,920
monster

3720
02:06:27,510 --> 02:06:25,679
and i don't mean this metaphorically i

3721
02:06:29,430 --> 02:06:27,520
mean this literally

3722
02:06:32,550 --> 02:06:29,440
because the flying spaghetti monster

3723
02:06:36,470 --> 02:06:32,560
theory accounts for all facts

3724
02:06:39,430 --> 02:06:36,480
just as well as as a

3725
02:06:41,430 --> 02:06:39,440
quantum field theory and and and and

3726
02:06:43,910 --> 02:06:41,440
relativity

3727
02:06:44,950 --> 02:06:43,920
you can always explain all facts by

3728
02:06:47,350 --> 02:06:44,960
saying that

3729
02:06:49,189 --> 02:06:47,360
the invisible nudely appendages of the

3730
02:06:51,109 --> 02:06:49,199
flying spaghetti monster

3731
02:06:52,229 --> 02:06:51,119
is orchestrating everything the way it

3732
02:06:59,350 --> 02:06:52,239
is

3733
02:07:02,229 --> 02:06:59,360
criterium criteria criteria criterium

3734
02:07:04,069 --> 02:07:02,239
admit to that there's nothing objective

3735
02:07:05,750 --> 02:07:04,079
etched in stoning nature saying that

3736
02:07:06,390 --> 02:07:05,760
nature has to be the simplest version of

3737
02:07:10,149 --> 02:07:06,400
itself

3738
02:07:11,189 --> 02:07:10,159
so admit to that but with one hand they

3739
02:07:14,030 --> 02:07:11,199
admit to that with

3740
02:07:16,550 --> 02:07:14,040
the other hand i highlight to you how

3741
02:07:17,990 --> 02:07:16,560
indispensable this subjective criteria

3742
02:07:21,910 --> 02:07:18,000
criterion is

3743
02:07:24,950 --> 02:07:21,920
because the the alternative is madness

3744
02:07:26,550 --> 02:07:24,960
it's it's complete nonsense

3745
02:07:28,149 --> 02:07:26,560
he's the flying spaghetti monster being

3746
02:07:30,790 --> 02:07:28,159
taken very seriously

3747
02:07:31,669 --> 02:07:30,800
bernardo i love you i feel like we're

3748
02:07:33,030 --> 02:07:31,679
out of oneness

3749
02:07:34,790 --> 02:07:33,040
i feel like your theory may be true

3750
02:07:35,430 --> 02:07:34,800
because i'm i'm here in tune with you

3751
02:07:38,149 --> 02:07:35,440
right now

3752
02:07:39,350 --> 02:07:38,159
but i don't see your theory as being

3753
02:07:40,390 --> 02:07:39,360
much more different than the flying

3754
02:07:42,229 --> 02:07:40,400
spaghetti monster

3755
02:07:44,310 --> 02:07:42,239
because you're saying i don't mean that

3756
02:07:46,870 --> 02:07:44,320
as insulting at all please please

3757
02:07:47,510 --> 02:07:46,880
i'm so i'll admit that i know so little

3758
02:07:48,950 --> 02:07:47,520
that

3759
02:07:50,790 --> 02:07:48,960
i wouldn't even identify as being

3760
02:07:51,669 --> 02:07:50,800
agnostic i'm so agnostic that i'm not

3761
02:07:54,470 --> 02:07:51,679
even agnostic

3762
02:07:54,870 --> 02:07:54,480
but i know very little too right right

3763
02:07:57,589 --> 02:07:54,880
right

3764
02:07:59,350 --> 02:07:57,599
okay so what so how is your theory much

3765
02:08:00,950 --> 02:07:59,360
different than someone saying

3766
02:08:02,629 --> 02:08:00,960
that well that's just the way it is

3767
02:08:03,750 --> 02:08:02,639
because god made it that way and why

3768
02:08:05,430 --> 02:08:03,760
can't one just say that

3769
02:08:07,189 --> 02:08:05,440
that seems like it's actually even more

3770
02:08:08,709 --> 02:08:07,199
simpler what's even more simpler by the

3771
02:08:09,750 --> 02:08:08,719
way solipsism so i'm wondering like why

3772
02:08:11,750 --> 02:08:09,760
don't you just choose that

3773
02:08:14,069 --> 02:08:11,760
i do have my own ideas as to why you

3774
02:08:16,149 --> 02:08:14,079
don't but we can talk about that after

3775
02:08:17,910 --> 02:08:16,159
i wrote about that look i am a

3776
02:08:22,069 --> 02:08:17,920
naturalist

3777
02:08:25,750 --> 02:08:22,079
behave the way they behave because

3778
02:08:28,470 --> 02:08:25,760
nature is what it is and we can reduce

3779
02:08:30,229 --> 02:08:28,480
things like we can reduce the human

3780
02:08:32,310 --> 02:08:30,239
organism down to organs

3781
02:08:34,149 --> 02:08:32,320
and organs down to tissues and tissues

3782
02:08:35,350 --> 02:08:34,159
down to cells and cells to molecules and

3783
02:08:37,910 --> 02:08:35,360
molecules to atoms

3784
02:08:38,390 --> 02:08:37,920
and atoms to subatomic particles and

3785
02:08:41,510 --> 02:08:38,400
those

3786
02:08:45,030 --> 02:08:41,520
to quantum fields so i grant

3787
02:08:45,910 --> 02:08:45,040
all that i'm a naturalist i'm not saying

3788
02:08:47,990 --> 02:08:45,920
that

3789
02:08:49,990 --> 02:08:48,000
things happen the way they are simply

3790
02:08:53,109 --> 02:08:50,000
because they are what they are

3791
02:08:55,990 --> 02:08:53,119
this is an expression of those who

3792
02:08:57,270 --> 02:08:56,000
deny reductionism i don't deny

3793
02:08:59,669 --> 02:08:57,280
reductionism i am

3794
02:09:01,030 --> 02:08:59,679
an extreme reductionist i want to reduce

3795
02:09:02,709 --> 02:09:01,040
everything to one

3796
02:09:05,109 --> 02:09:02,719
right i'm an extreme form of a

3797
02:09:06,069 --> 02:09:05,119
reductionist in an extreme form of a

3798
02:09:08,709 --> 02:09:06,079
naturalist

3799
02:09:10,790 --> 02:09:08,719
because i say what is happening is

3800
02:09:11,350 --> 02:09:10,800
because nature is what it is and it's

3801
02:09:16,069 --> 02:09:11,360
all

3802
02:09:19,830 --> 02:09:16,079
that nature is

3803
02:09:23,189 --> 02:09:19,840
the thing is whatever position you have

3804
02:09:24,629 --> 02:09:23,199
as a reductionist at the end you come to

3805
02:09:27,669 --> 02:09:24,639
something that is not

3806
02:09:29,350 --> 02:09:27,679
further reducible you cannot explain one

3807
02:09:32,790 --> 02:09:29,360
thing in terms of another forever

3808
02:09:34,229 --> 02:09:32,800
you have to come to at least one

3809
02:09:36,069 --> 02:09:34,239
you have to come to something that is

3810
02:09:37,990 --> 02:09:36,079
reducible at the end

3811
02:09:39,750 --> 02:09:38,000
but in terms of which you can explain

3812
02:09:41,510 --> 02:09:39,760
everything else

3813
02:09:43,589 --> 02:09:41,520
philosophers call this your reduction

3814
02:09:44,790 --> 02:09:43,599
set your reduction base

3815
02:09:47,350 --> 02:09:44,800
when you say reduction based that's the

3816
02:09:49,830 --> 02:09:47,360
same as math it's the axioms

3817
02:09:50,950 --> 02:09:49,840
yeah it's it's correlate with that yeah

3818
02:09:52,629 --> 02:09:50,960
the axioms are

3819
02:09:54,069 --> 02:09:52,639
the reduction base of a mathematical

3820
02:09:56,390 --> 02:09:54,079
theory yeah

3821
02:09:58,830 --> 02:09:56,400
um but but i mean that in an ontological

3822
02:10:02,390 --> 02:09:58,840
sense not in a modeling sense

3823
02:10:04,790 --> 02:10:02,400
so all reductionists who have to have a

3824
02:10:06,149 --> 02:10:04,800
reduction base with at least one element

3825
02:10:08,550 --> 02:10:06,159
because the alternative to that is

3826
02:10:11,270 --> 02:10:08,560
circularity and nobody

3827
02:10:12,550 --> 02:10:11,280
nobody's seriously proposing circularity

3828
02:10:13,830 --> 02:10:12,560
yeah okay we can talk about that

3829
02:10:15,750 --> 02:10:13,840
there are some people i'm sure you get

3830
02:10:17,350 --> 02:10:15,760
emails of some people saying somehow we

3831
02:10:18,390 --> 02:10:17,360
can bootstrap ourselves from nothing

3832
02:10:20,470 --> 02:10:18,400
now there are some people who say even

3833
02:10:22,629 --> 02:10:20,480
quantum fluctuations but that requires

3834
02:10:24,550 --> 02:10:22,639
you need at least potentials yes you

3835
02:10:26,229 --> 02:10:24,560
cannot pull something out of nothing

3836
02:10:27,910 --> 02:10:26,239
there has to be at least potentials so

3837
02:10:29,350 --> 02:10:27,920
they are defining existence in a

3838
02:10:29,669 --> 02:10:29,360
certainly different and more restrictive

3839
02:10:32,229 --> 02:10:29,679
way

3840
02:10:32,950 --> 02:10:32,239
but yeah okay i understand to go back to

3841
02:10:36,229 --> 02:10:32,960
the point

3842
02:10:37,830 --> 02:10:36,239
um every reductionist need a reduction

3843
02:10:39,510 --> 02:10:37,840
with at least one element

3844
02:10:41,030 --> 02:10:39,520
so why do i think my theory is more

3845
02:10:43,430 --> 02:10:41,040
parsimonious well let's

3846
02:10:45,430 --> 02:10:43,440
compare to the competition let's see

3847
02:10:48,069 --> 02:10:45,440
what else is on the table out there

3848
02:10:49,990 --> 02:10:48,079
if you are a naive materialist the

3849
02:10:50,629 --> 02:10:50,000
competition is a reduction base that

3850
02:10:54,310 --> 02:10:50,639
contains

3851
02:10:57,430 --> 02:10:54,320
every element in in the in the

3852
02:11:00,550 --> 02:10:57,440
menu of fundamental particles of of

3853
02:11:03,350 --> 02:11:00,560
uh our best model of

3854
02:11:03,669 --> 02:11:03,360
micro microscopic nature we have today

3855
02:11:05,669 --> 02:11:03,679
um

3856
02:11:07,030 --> 02:11:05,679
and there is a menu of several particles

3857
02:11:09,910 --> 02:11:07,040
several fermions

3858
02:11:10,629 --> 02:11:09,920
uh the the bosons there are several

3859
02:11:13,270 --> 02:11:10,639
particles

3860
02:11:14,069 --> 02:11:13,280
it's over a dozen so if you're a naive

3861
02:11:16,149 --> 02:11:14,079
materialist

3862
02:11:18,709 --> 02:11:16,159
that's your reduction base those things

3863
02:11:20,229 --> 02:11:18,719
exist because they just exist

3864
02:11:21,589 --> 02:11:20,239
and they have no relation to each other

3865
02:11:22,229 --> 02:11:21,599
and they are what they are simply

3866
02:11:25,030 --> 02:11:22,239
because

3867
02:11:26,149 --> 02:11:25,040
they are what they are that's it you end

3868
02:11:28,069 --> 02:11:26,159
there okay that

3869
02:11:30,229 --> 02:11:28,079
i submit to you that that's less

3870
02:11:30,790 --> 02:11:30,239
parsimonious than reducing everything to

3871
02:11:33,109 --> 02:11:30,800
one

3872
02:11:35,270 --> 02:11:33,119
natural consciousness now let's look at

3873
02:11:36,950 --> 02:11:35,280
the more sophisticated less naive

3874
02:11:38,550 --> 02:11:36,960
competition let's look at the quantum

3875
02:11:40,550 --> 02:11:38,560
field theorists

3876
02:11:41,669 --> 02:11:40,560
they reduce those particles to the

3877
02:11:45,350 --> 02:11:41,679
corresponding

3878
02:11:47,350 --> 02:11:45,360
fields so they different electrons

3879
02:11:48,870 --> 02:11:47,360
are not really separate they are not all

3880
02:11:50,950 --> 02:11:48,880
in your reduction base

3881
02:11:53,270 --> 02:11:50,960
they are just patterns of vibration of

3882
02:11:55,430 --> 02:11:53,280
one field for all electrons

3883
02:11:56,790 --> 02:11:55,440
okay that's a huge step forward now

3884
02:11:58,310 --> 02:11:56,800
instead of a reduction base with

3885
02:12:01,270 --> 02:11:58,320
gazillions of elements

3886
02:12:01,669 --> 02:12:01,280
now we have only a handful one field for

3887
02:12:04,629 --> 02:12:01,679
each

3888
02:12:06,149 --> 02:12:04,639
type of fundamental subatomic particle

3889
02:12:08,229 --> 02:12:06,159
but it is still several

3890
02:12:10,550 --> 02:12:08,239
several elements in your reduction base

3891
02:12:12,790 --> 02:12:10,560
so i'm more parsimonious than that so

3892
02:12:14,709 --> 02:12:12,800
is there more sophisticated competition

3893
02:12:15,910 --> 02:12:14,719
well there is there is the string

3894
02:12:18,310 --> 02:12:15,920
theorists

3895
02:12:19,350 --> 02:12:18,320
of the unified field uh quantum

3896
02:12:21,669 --> 02:12:19,360
theorists

3897
02:12:22,550 --> 02:12:21,679
or the loop quantum gravity folks right

3898
02:12:24,310 --> 02:12:22,560
or the m

3899
02:12:25,910 --> 02:12:24,320
theorists and they reduce those fields

3900
02:12:27,030 --> 02:12:25,920
and they try to reduce those fields to

3901
02:12:28,470 --> 02:12:27,040
one

3902
02:12:30,790 --> 02:12:28,480
but then they fail to explain

3903
02:12:32,709 --> 02:12:30,800
consciousness because the trick of a

3904
02:12:35,189 --> 02:12:32,719
reduction base is not only

3905
02:12:36,870 --> 02:12:35,199
that it has to be as small as possible

3906
02:12:38,069 --> 02:12:36,880
but you have to explain everything in

3907
02:12:39,910 --> 02:12:38,079
terms of it

3908
02:12:42,149 --> 02:12:39,920
that's the criterium you can have a

3909
02:12:43,350 --> 02:12:42,159
reduction base with only one arbitrary

3910
02:12:45,189 --> 02:12:43,360
element

3911
02:12:47,030 --> 02:12:45,199
by saying well i explain one thing with

3912
02:12:48,470 --> 02:12:47,040
this one arbitrary element but i failed

3913
02:12:50,629 --> 02:12:48,480
to explain everything else but

3914
02:12:51,830 --> 02:12:50,639
that that that's not fair that's not how

3915
02:12:53,990 --> 02:12:51,840
the game's played

3916
02:12:55,910 --> 02:12:54,000
so you have to put s few elements in

3917
02:12:57,510 --> 02:12:55,920
there but you still have to explain

3918
02:12:59,589 --> 02:12:57,520
everything else in terms of them

3919
02:13:01,510 --> 02:12:59,599
i submit to you that the m theorists and

3920
02:13:03,270 --> 02:13:01,520
unified quantum field theorists

3921
02:13:04,870 --> 02:13:03,280
they fail to do that unless they say

3922
02:13:08,550 --> 02:13:04,880
that their quantum fields

3923
02:13:10,790 --> 02:13:08,560
is just a model for consciousness

3924
02:13:11,750 --> 02:13:10,800
and then you can reduce everything to

3925
02:13:15,109 --> 02:13:11,760
that so my

3926
02:13:17,430 --> 02:13:15,119
claim to having them a parsimonious

3927
02:13:18,709 --> 02:13:17,440
theory of nature a philosophical one not

3928
02:13:21,510 --> 02:13:18,719
a scientific one

3929
02:13:21,830 --> 02:13:21,520
is based on the fact that i believe and

3930
02:13:23,510 --> 02:13:21,840
that

3931
02:13:25,430 --> 02:13:23,520
the case i have been putting forward for

3932
02:13:26,870 --> 02:13:25,440
years in a variety of books and articles

3933
02:13:29,030 --> 02:13:26,880
scientific and otherwise

3934
02:13:30,870 --> 02:13:29,040
technical and otherwise i believe i can

3935
02:13:34,870 --> 02:13:30,880
argue that i can reduce

3936
02:13:35,510 --> 02:13:34,880
everything to one field of consciousness

3937
02:13:37,669 --> 02:13:35,520
if you will

3938
02:13:39,270 --> 02:13:37,679
one instinctive natural consciousness

3939
02:13:41,750 --> 02:13:39,280
that underlies all reality

3940
02:13:42,870 --> 02:13:41,760
if i can do that then i think it's an

3941
02:13:44,550 --> 02:13:42,880
objective fact

3942
02:13:46,550 --> 02:13:44,560
that my theory is the most parsimonious

3943
02:13:48,149 --> 02:13:46,560
it may not be the right one

3944
02:13:50,470 --> 02:13:48,159
but of those on the table it's

3945
02:13:52,709 --> 02:13:50,480
definitely the most parsimonious

3946
02:13:54,550 --> 02:13:52,719
have you heard of ken wilbur i have

3947
02:13:56,069 --> 02:13:54,560
heard of him an integral theory and i

3948
02:13:58,229 --> 02:13:56,079
know nothing about it

3949
02:14:00,149 --> 02:13:58,239
okay so how about where do you disagree

3950
02:14:02,069 --> 02:14:00,159
with schopenhauer

3951
02:14:03,270 --> 02:14:02,079
i know he's you're you're standing on

3952
02:14:05,350 --> 02:14:03,280
the shoulders of him

3953
02:14:06,310 --> 02:14:05,360
and you grant him plenty of status but

3954
02:14:09,270 --> 02:14:06,320
i'm curious

3955
02:14:10,069 --> 02:14:09,280
given that you you know something i

3956
02:14:13,990 --> 02:14:10,079
don't like

3957
02:14:15,589 --> 02:14:14,000
about watching philosophers debate

3958
02:14:17,030 --> 02:14:15,599
this you're somewhat characteristic of

3959
02:14:18,629 --> 02:14:17,040
this as well is they'll reference

3960
02:14:20,470 --> 02:14:18,639
schopenhauer and then certain ancient

3961
02:14:22,629 --> 02:14:20,480
texts you don't do this all the time but

3962
02:14:26,069 --> 02:14:22,639
i i don't like that because

3963
02:14:28,470 --> 02:14:26,079
it's as if schopenhauer is interpretable

3964
02:14:30,149 --> 02:14:28,480
but it's not as if there's a consensus

3965
02:14:30,950 --> 02:14:30,159
on that and it's not as if there's a

3966
02:14:32,470 --> 02:14:30,960
consensus

3967
02:14:35,030 --> 02:14:32,480
as to what the ancient texts mean so

3968
02:14:36,950 --> 02:14:35,040
when people appeal to them i'm thinking

3969
02:14:38,069 --> 02:14:36,960
the ideas have to stand on their own now

3970
02:14:40,550 --> 02:14:38,079
you can always say it's

3971
02:14:41,109 --> 02:14:40,560
something funny about nietzsche is that

3972
02:14:43,669 --> 02:14:41,119
nietzsche

3973
02:14:44,950 --> 02:14:43,679
philosophized with the hammer famously

3974
02:14:46,310 --> 02:14:44,960
and when you read it it's like someone

3975
02:14:48,950 --> 02:14:46,320
with a megaphone

3976
02:14:50,390 --> 02:14:48,960
speaking from a one-way mirror and then

3977
02:14:51,430 --> 02:14:50,400
you can't speak back to them so what do

3978
02:14:52,629 --> 02:14:51,440
you mean when you said that there's no

3979
02:14:54,310 --> 02:14:52,639
such thing as facts

3980
02:14:55,589 --> 02:14:54,320
well then you're just left with well he

3981
02:14:57,030 --> 02:14:55,599
said there's no such thing as facts and

3982
02:14:58,870 --> 02:14:57,040
he said it so emphatically

3983
02:15:00,390 --> 02:14:58,880
okay let me interpret that's interesting

3984
02:15:00,870 --> 02:15:00,400
but you can't actually converse with

3985
02:15:04,069 --> 02:15:00,880
them

3986
02:15:05,589 --> 02:15:04,079
so either way that's just a little rant

3987
02:15:06,790 --> 02:15:05,599
when you talk about schopenhauer can you

3988
02:15:08,069 --> 02:15:06,800
compare and contrast you've studied

3989
02:15:10,069 --> 02:15:08,079
schopenhauer probably more than anyone

3990
02:15:10,709 --> 02:15:10,079
else that i know or maybe anyone else on

3991
02:15:12,950 --> 02:15:10,719
the planet

3992
02:15:14,390 --> 02:15:12,960
so where do you agree and disagree with

3993
02:15:16,149 --> 02:15:14,400
him on

3994
02:15:17,990 --> 02:15:16,159
can i comment just briefly on your

3995
02:15:19,750 --> 02:15:18,000
preface to the question

3996
02:15:21,430 --> 02:15:19,760
um i i i don't think it's fair to

3997
02:15:21,990 --> 02:15:21,440
compare nature to schroppenhauer in that

3998
02:15:24,069 --> 02:15:22,000
sense

3999
02:15:26,390 --> 02:15:24,079
because nietzsche although you can

4000
02:15:28,310 --> 02:15:26,400
discern his meanings to exclude at least

4001
02:15:28,870 --> 02:15:28,320
the most outrageous interpretations of

4002
02:15:30,709 --> 02:15:28,880
him

4003
02:15:32,470 --> 02:15:30,719
like the nazi interpretation of

4004
02:15:34,149 --> 02:15:32,480
nietzsche is outrageous

4005
02:15:35,750 --> 02:15:34,159
he said the contrary of what that

4006
02:15:37,750 --> 02:15:35,760
nietzsche was not a nationalist he was

4007
02:15:39,589 --> 02:15:37,760
an anti-nationalist he was the first

4008
02:15:40,229 --> 02:15:39,599
european he called himself the first

4009
02:15:42,229 --> 02:15:40,239
european

4010
02:15:43,910 --> 02:15:42,239
he didn't care about national boundaries

4011
02:15:45,430 --> 02:15:43,920
he cared about culture and he was very

4012
02:15:47,830 --> 02:15:45,440
critical of german culture

4013
02:15:48,830 --> 02:15:47,840
so his his co-opting by the nazis was

4014
02:15:51,750 --> 02:15:48,840
just

4015
02:15:54,629 --> 02:15:51,760
outrageous right one of the greatest

4016
02:15:57,910 --> 02:15:54,639
offenses in the history of philosophy

4017
02:16:01,669 --> 02:15:57,920
but he wrote in a nomic

4018
02:16:04,550 --> 02:16:01,679
way because his eyesight was so poor

4019
02:16:05,910 --> 02:16:04,560
he couldn't write real books his only

4020
02:16:09,030 --> 02:16:05,920
real complete book

4021
02:16:11,830 --> 02:16:09,040
was the birth of tragedy

4022
02:16:15,430 --> 02:16:11,840
which was the first everything else was

4023
02:16:18,310 --> 02:16:15,440
a collection of extended aphorisms

4024
02:16:19,589 --> 02:16:18,320
in the genealogy of morals he tried to

4025
02:16:22,470 --> 02:16:19,599
to write three or four

4026
02:16:24,470 --> 02:16:22,480
more complete essays but they are essays

4027
02:16:26,229 --> 02:16:24,480
even the genealogy of morals is not

4028
02:16:26,950 --> 02:16:26,239
really a complete book his only book was

4029
02:16:29,910 --> 02:16:26,960
the first

4030
02:16:30,629 --> 02:16:29,920
so he couldn't see he couldn't write

4031
02:16:33,349 --> 02:16:30,639
properly

4032
02:16:35,589 --> 02:16:33,359
so he couldn't really spend a lot of

4033
02:16:37,669 --> 02:16:35,599
time elaborating on his ideas

4034
02:16:39,190 --> 02:16:37,679
he had to make brief notes and he

4035
02:16:40,309 --> 02:16:39,200
published those notes in the form of

4036
02:16:43,270 --> 02:16:40,319
aphorisms

4037
02:16:45,030 --> 02:16:43,280
the gay science or because these words

4038
02:16:47,910 --> 02:16:45,040
have been co-opted today

4039
02:16:49,830 --> 02:16:47,920
the joyful wisdom his book is a

4040
02:16:51,589 --> 02:16:49,840
collection of aphorisms and so is a

4041
02:16:52,389 --> 02:16:51,599
human ultra human it's a collection of

4042
02:16:55,669 --> 02:16:52,399
aphorisms

4043
02:16:57,750 --> 02:16:55,679
so it's very difficult to say

4044
02:17:00,070 --> 02:16:57,760
what nietzsche really meant especially

4045
02:17:02,309 --> 02:17:00,080
because he changed his mind

4046
02:17:03,910 --> 02:17:02,319
during his life he was very fond of

4047
02:17:04,549 --> 02:17:03,920
schopenhauer at some point in the early

4048
02:17:06,230 --> 02:17:04,559
days then

4049
02:17:08,309 --> 02:17:06,240
he said chopin howard was completely

4050
02:17:11,030 --> 02:17:08,319
wrong and he blundered everything

4051
02:17:13,030 --> 02:17:11,040
he he actually writes that schopenhauer

4052
02:17:14,309 --> 02:17:13,040
blundered this just like he blundered

4053
02:17:18,150 --> 02:17:14,319
about anything else

4054
02:17:22,230 --> 02:17:18,160
he says that in his weird autobiography

4055
02:17:23,990 --> 02:17:22,240
ecce homo so it's very difficult to

4056
02:17:25,830 --> 02:17:24,000
pin down nietzsche's meaning because you

4057
02:17:27,990 --> 02:17:25,840
have to ask well

4058
02:17:29,669 --> 02:17:28,000
when was he writing if you're saying

4059
02:17:31,190 --> 02:17:29,679
that nietzsche thought this and when did

4060
02:17:33,750 --> 02:17:31,200
he think this was it in the early days

4061
02:17:35,589 --> 02:17:33,760
in the mid-career or in the late days

4062
02:17:37,270 --> 02:17:35,599
uh and even then it's difficult to pin

4063
02:17:38,790 --> 02:17:37,280
down his meaning schopenhauer on the

4064
02:17:41,830 --> 02:17:38,800
other hand was consistent

4065
02:17:42,070 --> 02:17:41,840
the second edition of the world uh as we

4066
02:17:43,990 --> 02:17:42,080
and

4067
02:17:45,830 --> 02:17:44,000
or the final edition in his lifetime of

4068
02:17:49,110 --> 02:17:45,840
the world as we own representation

4069
02:17:50,870 --> 02:17:49,120
i believe came in 1853 the first edition

4070
02:17:53,830 --> 02:17:50,880
was in 1818

4071
02:17:55,830 --> 02:17:53,840
and guess what he extended it but he

4072
02:17:56,790 --> 02:17:55,840
didn't change a word of the first

4073
02:17:59,910 --> 02:17:56,800
edition

4074
02:18:00,389 --> 02:17:59,920
he didn't change our word of what he

4075
02:18:03,589 --> 02:18:00,399
wrote

4076
02:18:05,750 --> 02:18:03,599
in his early 30s and late 20s when he

4077
02:18:09,190 --> 02:18:05,760
was in his late 60s

4078
02:18:09,990 --> 02:18:09,200
so the coherence of his message is not

4079
02:18:11,910 --> 02:18:10,000
comparable with

4080
02:18:13,190 --> 02:18:11,920
nietzsche because schopenhauer wrote the

4081
02:18:16,070 --> 02:18:13,200
same thing

4082
02:18:16,870 --> 02:18:16,080
over and over again in a multitude of

4083
02:18:19,589 --> 02:18:16,880
different ways

4084
02:18:20,950 --> 02:18:19,599
never really contradicting himself if

4085
02:18:23,190 --> 02:18:20,960
you have the eyes to read it

4086
02:18:25,030 --> 02:18:23,200
and not to misinterpret it so i think we

4087
02:18:26,870 --> 02:18:25,040
can pin down what you've been hearing

4088
02:18:28,950 --> 02:18:26,880
whether he's right or wrong now where do

4089
02:18:33,110 --> 02:18:28,960
i disagree with him

4090
02:18:35,750 --> 02:18:33,120
i am not a misogynist to begin with

4091
02:18:38,790 --> 02:18:35,760
he okay yeah he was a terrible

4092
02:18:44,709 --> 02:18:41,910
a contemptible misogynist um

4093
02:18:45,190 --> 02:18:44,719
he was an optimist sorry he was an open

4094
02:18:46,469 --> 02:18:45,200
heart

4095
02:18:49,990 --> 02:18:46,479
that said the devil's laughter is what's

4096
02:18:53,830 --> 02:18:53,349
he was not against sex uh no no just

4097
02:18:56,950 --> 02:18:53,840
that

4098
02:18:59,270 --> 02:18:56,960
our base desires

4099
02:19:00,150 --> 02:18:59,280
and our intellect that right after

4100
02:19:01,589 --> 02:19:00,160
copulation

4101
02:19:02,790 --> 02:19:01,599
the devil's laughter is heard because

4102
02:19:04,230 --> 02:19:02,800
it's right then that you're like what am

4103
02:19:06,549 --> 02:19:04,240
i doing

4104
02:19:08,469 --> 02:19:06,559
why did i masturbate to that i don't

4105
02:19:09,910 --> 02:19:08,479
know why am i here

4106
02:19:11,750 --> 02:19:09,920
my study of schopenhauer is mostly

4107
02:19:13,349 --> 02:19:11,760
focused on his metaphysics and he had a

4108
02:19:15,509 --> 02:19:13,359
lot more to say just about

4109
02:19:17,349 --> 02:19:15,519
about just about everything else but i

4110
02:19:18,709 --> 02:19:17,359
focus on his metaphysics it could be i

4111
02:19:20,070 --> 02:19:18,719
don't i cannot know

4112
02:19:22,150 --> 02:19:20,080
okay in a sense i know less of

4113
02:19:23,750 --> 02:19:22,160
schopenhauer than i know of nietzsche

4114
02:19:25,349 --> 02:19:23,760
i certainly known less of schopenhauer

4115
02:19:25,669 --> 02:19:25,359
than i know of jung because the latter

4116
02:19:27,509 --> 02:19:25,679
two

4117
02:19:29,190 --> 02:19:27,519
uh young nietzsche i've read everything

4118
02:19:32,309 --> 02:19:29,200
they ever wrote

4119
02:19:33,110 --> 02:19:32,319
including uh the class that's

4120
02:19:35,750 --> 02:19:33,120
commendable

4121
02:19:36,549 --> 02:19:35,760
jung is difficult to read like extremely

4122
02:19:39,270 --> 02:19:36,559
extremely

4123
02:19:41,509 --> 02:19:39,280
dense and there's so much flowery

4124
02:19:44,950 --> 02:19:41,519
language it's ostentatious it takes

4125
02:19:47,030 --> 02:19:44,960
it it takes me maybe four times the

4126
02:19:48,469 --> 02:19:47,040
time that i was spending anything else

4127
02:19:48,870 --> 02:19:48,479
just to read him can i make a suggestion

4128
02:19:51,670 --> 02:19:48,880
for you

4129
02:19:53,110 --> 02:19:51,680
on the first read ignore the footnotes

4130
02:19:54,469 --> 02:19:53,120
do yourself this favor

4131
02:19:56,389 --> 02:19:54,479
when you're reading a book by young for

4132
02:19:59,349 --> 02:19:56,399
the first time don't

4133
02:20:00,389 --> 02:19:59,359
read the footnotes it will completely

4134
02:20:02,150 --> 02:20:00,399
break the flow of the book

4135
02:20:03,910 --> 02:20:02,160
to drive you nuts because he is

4136
02:20:05,750 --> 02:20:03,920
scholastic beyond belief

4137
02:20:07,990 --> 02:20:05,760
he's like a middle-aged scholastic

4138
02:20:10,309 --> 02:20:08,000
philosopher when it comes to footnotes

4139
02:20:11,429 --> 02:20:10,319
don't read them then after you finished

4140
02:20:14,710 --> 02:20:11,439
reading it

4141
02:20:15,670 --> 02:20:14,720
yeah after you read it once two eyes on

4142
02:20:17,990 --> 02:20:15,680
the third read

4143
02:20:18,950 --> 02:20:18,000
then you come back and then read the

4144
02:20:21,110 --> 02:20:18,960
footnotes but

4145
02:20:22,870 --> 02:20:21,120
don't do this just favorite yourself and

4146
02:20:25,670 --> 02:20:22,880
read the footnotes on the first read

4147
02:20:26,469 --> 02:20:25,680
uh it will make the work um impossible

4148
02:20:29,990 --> 02:20:26,479
it will

4149
02:20:33,030 --> 02:20:30,000
just get stuck in a more wrath of of

4150
02:20:34,469 --> 02:20:33,040
obscure references that is impossible

4151
02:20:36,630 --> 02:20:34,479
okay to manage

4152
02:20:37,710 --> 02:20:36,640
but uh about schopenhauer yeah

4153
02:20:40,230 --> 02:20:37,720
schopenhauer

4154
02:20:40,870 --> 02:20:40,240
philosophically i have a hard time

4155
02:20:45,590 --> 02:20:40,880
finding

4156
02:20:47,590 --> 02:20:45,600
a salient point of disagreement

4157
02:20:49,429 --> 02:20:47,600
i would say this i don't think he went

4158
02:20:51,510 --> 02:20:49,439
all the way he didn't

4159
02:20:53,270 --> 02:20:51,520
dot all the eyes and cross all the t's

4160
02:20:56,070 --> 02:20:53,280
he left some points

4161
02:20:58,070 --> 02:20:56,080
open for which he just hinted that or

4162
02:21:00,790 --> 02:20:58,080
suggested solutions for instance

4163
02:21:01,510 --> 02:21:00,800
he hinted that dissociation as the

4164
02:21:05,270 --> 02:21:01,520
mechanism

4165
02:21:08,230 --> 02:21:05,280
to explain why we have a personal will

4166
02:21:10,070 --> 02:21:08,240
while the will in fact is unitary

4167
02:21:12,150 --> 02:21:10,080
because it's not bound by space and time

4168
02:21:12,790 --> 02:21:12,160
by the principle of individuation as he

4169
02:21:15,190 --> 02:21:12,800
called it

4170
02:21:17,510 --> 02:21:15,200
in other words to separate one thing

4171
02:21:20,309 --> 02:21:17,520
from another according to schopenhauer

4172
02:21:22,070 --> 02:21:20,319
you need to say that they either occupy

4173
02:21:24,150 --> 02:21:22,080
different volumes of space

4174
02:21:26,309 --> 02:21:24,160
or they occupy the same volume of space

4175
02:21:27,910 --> 02:21:26,319
at different points in time if there is

4176
02:21:30,150 --> 02:21:27,920
no space time

4177
02:21:31,750 --> 02:21:30,160
within which you can tear things has to

4178
02:21:33,910 --> 02:21:31,760
be differentiation yeah

4179
02:21:35,750 --> 02:21:33,920
okay yeah then things are one and and he

4180
02:21:36,950 --> 02:21:35,760
said the and space and time is a is a

4181
02:21:39,429 --> 02:21:36,960
mode of cognition

4182
02:21:41,990 --> 02:21:39,439
it doesn't exist out there therefore the

4183
02:21:44,389 --> 02:21:42,000
will the world as it is in itself

4184
02:21:45,349 --> 02:21:44,399
out there can only be one because there

4185
02:21:47,429 --> 02:21:45,359
is no space time

4186
02:21:48,389 --> 02:21:47,439
for you to to have diversity yet yet he

4187
02:21:50,150 --> 02:21:48,399
admitted

4188
02:21:51,429 --> 02:21:50,160
that we are individual beings and

4189
02:21:53,670 --> 02:21:51,439
animals too

4190
02:21:56,070 --> 02:21:53,680
uh he says that automator we are not

4191
02:21:59,830 --> 02:21:56,080
because he said and now i will quote

4192
02:22:02,469 --> 02:21:59,840
word by word because the the subject

4193
02:22:04,469 --> 02:22:02,479
the eye that sees the world through us

4194
02:22:06,070 --> 02:22:04,479
is the same eye that sees the world

4195
02:22:06,870 --> 02:22:06,080
through every other animal so there is

4196
02:22:09,030 --> 02:22:06,880
unity

4197
02:22:11,030 --> 02:22:09,040
but there is a variety of perspectives

4198
02:22:12,309 --> 02:22:11,040
there is unity in essence but a variety

4199
02:22:15,030 --> 02:22:12,319
of perspectives

4200
02:22:16,150 --> 02:22:15,040
and he failed to account for how this

4201
02:22:19,190 --> 02:22:16,160
variety of

4202
02:22:21,510 --> 02:22:19,200
perspectives arose in the first place he

4203
02:22:22,710 --> 02:22:21,520
hinted at it by writing an entire

4204
02:22:26,230 --> 02:22:22,720
chapter about

4205
02:22:28,630 --> 02:22:26,240
cognitive associations and how without

4206
02:22:29,830 --> 02:22:28,640
the ability to cognitively associate one

4207
02:22:33,030 --> 02:22:29,840
thing with another

4208
02:22:34,790 --> 02:22:33,040
we would have no unity of mind he wrote

4209
02:22:37,910 --> 02:22:34,800
an entire chapter about that

4210
02:22:38,790 --> 02:22:37,920
but he failed to take the immediate next

4211
02:22:42,230 --> 02:22:38,800
step is

4212
02:22:44,950 --> 02:22:42,240
to say but it is the lack of cognitive

4213
02:22:46,389 --> 02:22:44,960
associations that explain the variety of

4214
02:22:48,630 --> 02:22:46,399
points of view

4215
02:22:49,670 --> 02:22:48,640
and that's what makes the unitary will

4216
02:22:52,309 --> 02:22:49,680
seem to be many

4217
02:22:52,870 --> 02:22:52,319
now he didn't take that bloody final

4218
02:22:55,990 --> 02:22:52,880
step

4219
02:22:56,550 --> 02:22:56,000
although he flirted with it he hinted at

4220
02:22:59,910 --> 02:22:56,560
it

4221
02:23:01,110 --> 02:22:59,920
like what you're saying is well how is

4222
02:23:02,070 --> 02:23:01,120
there a difference when we're all from

4223
02:23:05,590 --> 02:23:02,080
the same

4224
02:23:06,870 --> 02:23:05,600
you have to explain the illusion of

4225
02:23:08,389 --> 02:23:06,880
separation

4226
02:23:09,510 --> 02:23:08,399
and then you're saying well you just

4227
02:23:10,790 --> 02:23:09,520
explain it by saying that we're

4228
02:23:13,429 --> 02:23:10,800
dissociated

4229
02:23:15,590 --> 02:23:13,439
you have to propose a mechanism that

4230
02:23:16,469 --> 02:23:15,600
allows you to reduce diversity to a

4231
02:23:19,670 --> 02:23:16,479
unity

4232
02:23:22,710 --> 02:23:19,680
because diversity diversity simply

4233
02:23:26,630 --> 02:23:22,720
happens as an appearance i can't read

4234
02:23:31,429 --> 02:23:29,510
i cannot help but experiencing

4235
02:23:32,870 --> 02:23:31,439
differentiation between me and you

4236
02:23:34,950 --> 02:23:32,880
because i don't know exactly what you're

4237
02:23:36,870 --> 02:23:34,960
thinking right now i don't know how you

4238
02:23:39,750 --> 02:23:36,880
feel about life and the world

4239
02:23:41,270 --> 02:23:39,760
so i have to account for this variety of

4240
02:23:42,230 --> 02:23:41,280
perspectives and this seeming

4241
02:23:46,230 --> 02:23:42,240
differentiation

4242
02:23:48,309 --> 02:23:46,240
the sense that at the fundamental

4243
02:23:50,309 --> 02:23:48,319
level there is no differentiation at all

4244
02:23:51,270 --> 02:23:50,319
you have to account for how at least the

4245
02:23:53,270 --> 02:23:51,280
appearance

4246
02:23:55,590 --> 02:23:53,280
of differentiation arises and

4247
02:23:57,110 --> 02:23:55,600
schupenhauer flirted with a way to

4248
02:24:00,070 --> 02:23:57,120
account for that

4249
02:24:01,830 --> 02:24:00,080
but didn't go all the way so i so

4250
02:24:02,550 --> 02:24:01,840
instead of disagreeing with him i could

4251
02:24:05,750 --> 02:24:02,560
point out

4252
02:24:07,030 --> 02:24:05,760
the few places where i think i'm

4253
02:24:10,309 --> 02:24:07,040
prepared to go beyond

4254
02:24:12,070 --> 02:24:10,319
to go further than he did but of course

4255
02:24:13,510 --> 02:24:12,080
it's much easier for me to do that today

4256
02:24:17,030 --> 02:24:13,520
because i have

4257
02:24:20,710 --> 02:24:17,040
an entire scientific

4258
02:24:22,469 --> 02:24:20,720
dictionary of terms whose meaning people

4259
02:24:24,550 --> 02:24:22,479
already understand

4260
02:24:25,990 --> 02:24:24,560
i can talk about dissociation today

4261
02:24:27,750 --> 02:24:26,000
because i know there's a whole branch of

4262
02:24:28,710 --> 02:24:27,760
science called psychiatry that studied

4263
02:24:31,830 --> 02:24:28,720
this phenomenon

4264
02:24:33,590 --> 02:24:31,840
accounted for it described it we know

4265
02:24:35,670 --> 02:24:33,600
a lot about it so i can use one word and

4266
02:24:36,070 --> 02:24:35,680
say dissociation and i account for it no

4267
02:24:39,190 --> 02:24:36,080
sure

4268
02:24:41,190 --> 02:24:39,200
i didn't have any of that so admittedly

4269
02:24:43,510 --> 02:24:41,200
if i had lived in his time with the

4270
02:24:47,110 --> 02:24:43,520
ideas that i have today

4271
02:24:48,389 --> 02:24:47,120
i would have had an unfathomably bigger

4272
02:24:51,270 --> 02:24:48,399
challenge than he had

4273
02:24:52,870 --> 02:24:51,280
and i'm very open about this i think i

4274
02:24:56,150 --> 02:24:52,880
would have done a much much

4275
02:24:58,389 --> 02:24:56,160
much worse job than he did in his time

4276
02:24:59,750 --> 02:24:58,399
so i see himself as superior to me in

4277
02:25:01,910 --> 02:24:59,760
almost every way

4278
02:25:03,110 --> 02:25:01,920
but yeah with the benefits of living in

4279
02:25:05,670 --> 02:25:03,120
a much more advanced

4280
02:25:07,910 --> 02:25:05,680
scientific culture today being able to

4281
02:25:09,429 --> 02:25:07,920
use terms and leverage knowledge that is

4282
02:25:10,790 --> 02:25:09,439
available to everyone today and was not

4283
02:25:13,349 --> 02:25:10,800
available at his time

4284
02:25:15,110 --> 02:25:13,359
then i dare say we can go beyond what he

4285
02:25:16,790 --> 02:25:15,120
did he went beyond count and i think

4286
02:25:18,469 --> 02:25:16,800
today we can go beyond him

4287
02:25:20,790 --> 02:25:18,479
this gets to the heart of what it means

4288
02:25:22,389 --> 02:25:20,800
to be one oneness

4289
02:25:24,070 --> 02:25:22,399
and also you can help me out here

4290
02:25:24,870 --> 02:25:24,080
sometimes when i speak about the people

4291
02:25:26,469 --> 02:25:24,880
who

4292
02:25:27,830 --> 02:25:26,479
think that we all belong to one vellum

4293
02:25:29,590 --> 02:25:27,840
we're just one consciousness and we're

4294
02:25:31,910 --> 02:25:29,600
just excitations of so and so

4295
02:25:34,150 --> 02:25:31,920
i call them the new age spiritual types

4296
02:25:35,750 --> 02:25:34,160
but i i don't mean that derogatorily

4297
02:25:36,950 --> 02:25:35,760
i don't mean that in any defamatory

4298
02:25:37,510 --> 02:25:36,960
manner i don't i just don't know how

4299
02:25:38,790 --> 02:25:37,520
else to

4300
02:25:41,190 --> 02:25:38,800
refer to them because not all of them

4301
02:25:42,230 --> 02:25:41,200
say comfortable no then sometimes i mean

4302
02:25:44,550 --> 02:25:42,240
it's derogatory

4303
02:25:45,750 --> 02:25:44,560
yeah so do you mind giving me a word

4304
02:25:47,270 --> 02:25:45,760
that i can use such that

4305
02:25:48,870 --> 02:25:47,280
those people won't roll their eyes when

4306
02:25:50,309 --> 02:25:48,880
i refer to them because i

4307
02:25:52,790 --> 02:25:50,319
i'm not even saying that i'm not one of

4308
02:25:53,670 --> 02:25:52,800
them like i i'm i'm probably closer to

4309
02:25:55,670 --> 02:25:53,680
them than they think

4310
02:25:57,110 --> 02:25:55,680
but i don't want to demean them yeah

4311
02:25:59,349 --> 02:25:57,120
integrate them

4312
02:26:00,150 --> 02:25:59,359
let's start this by making some obvious

4313
02:26:02,790 --> 02:26:00,160
admissions

4314
02:26:03,429 --> 02:26:02,800
things that we cannot help but admit

4315
02:26:08,230 --> 02:26:03,439
there

4316
02:26:10,469 --> 02:26:08,240
lot of new age

4317
02:26:12,309 --> 02:26:10,479
nonsense i wouldn't go as far as to say

4318
02:26:12,309 --> 02:26:13,030
that the whole new age movement is

4319
02:26:16,710 --> 02:26:14,950
that is extremely implausible that's not

4320
02:26:19,510 --> 02:26:16,720
how things happen

4321
02:26:19,990 --> 02:26:19,520
but a lot of the noisy visible part of

4322
02:26:23,190 --> 02:26:20,000
the new

4323
02:26:26,790 --> 02:26:23,200
age is flagrant nonsense

4324
02:26:29,270 --> 02:26:26,800
is flagrant gullible

4325
02:26:30,469 --> 02:26:29,280
and i don't hold my tongue back for that

4326
02:26:33,750 --> 02:26:30,479
and i regret

4327
02:26:36,150 --> 02:26:33,760
that the idea of one consciousness has

4328
02:26:38,070 --> 02:26:36,160
is now in in the popular mind so

4329
02:26:40,950 --> 02:26:38,080
associated with that kind of

4330
02:26:42,150 --> 02:26:40,960
yes gullible new age spiritual blah blah

4331
02:26:43,190 --> 02:26:42,160
blah i don't want to use the term

4332
02:26:45,590 --> 02:26:43,200
woo-woo because it's

4333
02:26:47,830 --> 02:26:45,600
right exactly what would be two examples

4334
02:26:49,830 --> 02:26:47,840
of

4335
02:26:51,750 --> 02:26:49,840
the new age types yeah now now you put

4336
02:26:52,469 --> 02:26:51,760
me in and i'll tell you why i say this

4337
02:26:58,150 --> 02:26:52,479
because

4338
02:27:00,230 --> 02:26:58,160
it's trying to find what's true in even

4339
02:27:04,550 --> 02:27:00,240
what sounds

4340
02:27:06,309 --> 02:27:04,560
insensitive that if they say well

4341
02:27:08,150 --> 02:27:06,319
we can remote view and we can have

4342
02:27:09,429 --> 02:27:08,160
psychic phenomena and ufos exist

4343
02:27:11,270 --> 02:27:09,439
and so on what i know that's not

4344
02:27:12,230 --> 02:27:11,280
necessarily new age but whatever it may

4345
02:27:14,870 --> 02:27:12,240
be i'm always thinking

4346
02:27:15,990 --> 02:27:14,880
well how is that true in some way okay

4347
02:27:17,990 --> 02:27:16,000
first of all how is it false it's

4348
02:27:20,070 --> 02:27:18,000
immediate to both you and i how that

4349
02:27:21,990 --> 02:27:20,080
could be false that's our natural

4350
02:27:23,190 --> 02:27:22,000
predilection but then i'm thinking well

4351
02:27:25,349 --> 02:27:23,200
how is it true and then i

4352
02:27:27,030 --> 02:27:25,359
i find that it's true in ways that are

4353
02:27:28,870 --> 02:27:27,040
revealing of such depth

4354
02:27:30,710 --> 02:27:28,880
that for me to dismiss them outright

4355
02:27:31,590 --> 02:27:30,720
would be for me to be like sabine

4356
02:27:33,510 --> 02:27:31,600
haasenfelder

4357
02:27:34,710 --> 02:27:33,520
who i admire and i've had on this

4358
02:27:37,110 --> 02:27:34,720
channel i do too

4359
02:27:39,349 --> 02:27:37,120
but she has good things to say yeah but

4360
02:27:39,910 --> 02:27:39,359
she is much like almost any materialist

4361
02:27:41,990 --> 02:27:39,920
that says

4362
02:27:43,349 --> 02:27:42,000
well if you can't define it then don't

4363
02:27:44,870 --> 02:27:43,359
bother with it it's

4364
02:27:47,030 --> 02:27:44,880
if it sounds on the surface

4365
02:27:47,670 --> 02:27:47,040
superficially cosmetically to be foolish

4366
02:27:50,550 --> 02:27:47,680
then it

4367
02:27:51,190 --> 02:27:50,560
it's not worth your time go shut up and

4368
02:27:53,110 --> 02:27:51,200
calculate

4369
02:27:55,590 --> 02:27:53,120
so she has that mindset whereas i have

4370
02:27:57,429 --> 02:27:55,600
the mindset of of

4371
02:27:59,349 --> 02:27:57,439
there's there's gold in the in the

4372
02:27:59,990 --> 02:27:59,359
rubble and i'll faucet i'll search

4373
02:28:01,990 --> 02:28:00,000
around

4374
02:28:03,270 --> 02:28:02,000
i have the same mindset great great

4375
02:28:05,670 --> 02:28:03,280
great great so what's so

4376
02:28:07,830 --> 02:28:05,680
given that what are give one example of

4377
02:28:09,590 --> 02:28:07,840
what the new age people take

4378
02:28:11,510 --> 02:28:09,600
i'm not going to zoom in on a specific

4379
02:28:14,630 --> 02:28:11,520
person although i could

4380
02:28:15,830 --> 02:28:14,640
i'll say this most of it i think is

4381
02:28:19,429 --> 02:28:15,840
nonsensical

4382
02:28:22,950 --> 02:28:19,439
um the core of it the essence of it

4383
02:28:25,910 --> 02:28:22,960
probably is not um i don't want to name

4384
02:28:27,830 --> 02:28:25,920
authors but i i can give you sort of

4385
02:28:29,270 --> 02:28:27,840
examples and if you can match examples

4386
02:28:30,870 --> 02:28:29,280
to authors then it's your problem you

4387
02:28:32,150 --> 02:28:30,880
are doing this not me i don't care

4388
02:28:35,510 --> 02:28:32,160
too much about that i'm more interested

4389
02:28:37,910 --> 02:28:35,520
in ideas ideas that

4390
02:28:38,950 --> 02:28:37,920
the stuff that was so visible before

4391
02:28:46,309 --> 02:28:38,960
2012

4392
02:28:46,950 --> 02:28:46,319
i have difficulties paraphrasing it

4393
02:28:48,550 --> 02:28:46,960
because

4394
02:28:50,230 --> 02:28:48,560
it was so nonsensical to have difficult

4395
02:28:51,750 --> 02:28:50,240
even paraphrasing it although i remember

4396
02:28:54,790 --> 02:28:51,760
yeah at the end of the world stuff but

4397
02:28:56,710 --> 02:28:54,800
there wasn't there was intricate sorry

4398
02:29:00,230 --> 02:28:56,720
intricate

4399
02:29:03,110 --> 02:29:00,240
fear is being proposed like there are

4400
02:29:05,349 --> 02:29:03,120
waves of a particular frequency coming

4401
02:29:08,469 --> 02:29:05,359
from the center of the galaxy

4402
02:29:08,870 --> 02:29:08,479
and they enter your heart and the kind

4403
02:29:11,990 --> 02:29:08,880
of

4404
02:29:15,270 --> 02:29:12,000
or there are aliens in the pleiades that

4405
02:29:16,950 --> 02:29:15,280
are at war and

4406
02:29:18,309 --> 02:29:16,960
i associate that so much with the new

4407
02:29:21,030 --> 02:29:18,319
age but

4408
02:29:21,990 --> 02:29:21,040
there are aliens who were who are at war

4409
02:29:24,070 --> 02:29:22,000
with a cabal

4410
02:29:26,150 --> 02:29:24,080
of human beings and these words

4411
02:29:28,550 --> 02:29:26,160
happening in the space above our heads

4412
02:29:29,190 --> 02:29:28,560
right now as we go busy ourselves with

4413
02:29:32,230 --> 02:29:29,200
banal

4414
02:29:33,190 --> 02:29:32,240
work and daily life i mean all this kind

4415
02:29:37,190 --> 02:29:33,200
of

4416
02:29:40,389 --> 02:29:37,200
ice cream toxic nonsense

4417
02:29:44,070 --> 02:29:40,399
made to to create

4418
02:29:46,230 --> 02:29:44,080
fictional images and make money that

4419
02:29:47,510 --> 02:29:46,240
stuff that is exploitative outright

4420
02:29:51,349 --> 02:29:47,520
exploitative

4421
02:29:53,510 --> 02:29:51,359
and i could not i'm i'm revealing myself

4422
02:29:54,469 --> 02:29:53,520
more now to you than i have ever done in

4423
02:29:57,590 --> 02:29:54,479
a in a

4424
02:30:01,110 --> 02:29:57,600
in an interview my level of

4425
02:30:04,710 --> 02:30:01,120
contempt for the

4426
02:30:06,950 --> 02:30:04,720
that many of my critics feel contempt

4427
02:30:14,230 --> 02:30:11,270
runs above the contempt my critics have

4428
02:30:15,910 --> 02:30:14,240
above those things um well that lends

4429
02:30:17,510 --> 02:30:15,920
credence more credence to you

4430
02:30:20,230 --> 02:30:17,520
i don't think so because it's a

4431
02:30:22,710 --> 02:30:20,240
subjective thing it's an emotional thing

4432
02:30:23,670 --> 02:30:22,720
it's not impartial what i mean to say is

4433
02:30:25,590 --> 02:30:23,680
that

4434
02:30:27,190 --> 02:30:25,600
if you find a certain set of ideas to be

4435
02:30:29,030 --> 02:30:27,200
ridiculous that people associate you

4436
02:30:30,950 --> 02:30:29,040
with but yet you believe

4437
02:30:33,270 --> 02:30:30,960
some overlap of it not all of it then

4438
02:30:35,670 --> 02:30:33,280
that means that

4439
02:30:37,429 --> 02:30:35,680
you're not driven there by pure want or

4440
02:30:39,110 --> 02:30:37,439
desire yeah but the reason i have

4441
02:30:40,790 --> 02:30:39,120
contempt for them is not because i am

4442
02:30:41,750 --> 02:30:40,800
associated with them i don't care too

4443
02:30:43,590 --> 02:30:41,760
much about that i

4444
02:30:45,750 --> 02:30:43,600
have my message to say and i say my

4445
02:30:47,510 --> 02:30:45,760
message and if you want to

4446
02:30:48,870 --> 02:30:47,520
associate me with something i didn't say

4447
02:30:49,349 --> 02:30:48,880
well that's your problem it's not my

4448
02:30:53,349 --> 02:30:49,359
problem

4449
02:30:54,870 --> 02:30:53,359
i didn't play the role i'm playing now

4450
02:30:57,190 --> 02:30:54,880
an author promoting a certain

4451
02:31:00,469 --> 02:30:57,200
metaphysical view suppose i was

4452
02:31:02,790 --> 02:31:00,479
just suppose i were still just

4453
02:31:05,030 --> 02:31:02,800
uh an executive in high tech in high

4454
02:31:06,950 --> 02:31:05,040
technology or an engineer

4455
02:31:08,110 --> 02:31:06,960
i would still have contempt i have such

4456
02:31:10,950 --> 02:31:08,120
a natural

4457
02:31:10,950 --> 02:31:11,910
spontaneous contempt for some of that

4458
02:31:15,910 --> 02:31:14,469
that it goes beyond what uh what you

4459
02:31:17,750 --> 02:31:15,920
could say well this is

4460
02:31:19,750 --> 02:31:17,760
reasonable and thought through now it's

4461
02:31:22,630 --> 02:31:19,760
just a visceral reaction

4462
02:31:24,630 --> 02:31:22,640
that that i have sometimes um but it's

4463
02:31:25,990 --> 02:31:24,640
not to the to all of the new age i mean

4464
02:31:28,230 --> 02:31:26,000
the deepak for instance is often

4465
02:31:30,550 --> 02:31:28,240
associated with a new age i

4466
02:31:32,309 --> 02:31:30,560
i maybe that was the case in the 80s i

4467
02:31:33,830 --> 02:31:32,319
don't know because i i didn't look but

4468
02:31:36,950 --> 02:31:33,840
the deepak i have known

4469
02:31:40,389 --> 02:31:36,960
for eight years

4470
02:31:41,990 --> 02:31:40,399
now i i have no association between him

4471
02:31:43,590 --> 02:31:42,000
and new age because everything

4472
02:31:46,469 --> 02:31:43,600
he says i find

4473
02:31:47,510 --> 02:31:46,479
eminently reasonable and and and

4474
02:31:49,510 --> 02:31:47,520
important

4475
02:31:51,910 --> 02:31:49,520
uh but there is stuff in the new age now

4476
02:31:54,950 --> 02:31:51,920
especially when it comes to the pleiades

4477
02:31:56,790 --> 02:31:54,960
and and cabals that oh

4478
02:31:58,630 --> 02:31:56,800
okay bernardo let me reveal myself then

4479
02:32:00,469 --> 02:31:58,640
to you a little bit about deepak

4480
02:32:01,990 --> 02:32:00,479
so here's what i see with deepak not

4481
02:32:03,750 --> 02:32:02,000
about his ideas but more about

4482
02:32:05,110 --> 02:32:03,760
his personality what i see when he

4483
02:32:06,630 --> 02:32:05,120
interviews some of the intellectuals

4484
02:32:07,750 --> 02:32:06,640
like stewart hammer off or even yourself

4485
02:32:11,270 --> 02:32:07,760
i watched that interview

4486
02:32:14,309 --> 02:32:11,280
i see someone who is not

4487
02:32:16,469 --> 02:32:14,319
like please i don't mean this in a

4488
02:32:18,309 --> 02:32:16,479
negative way i don't see someone who is

4489
02:32:20,790 --> 02:32:18,319
searching for the truth no matter how it

4490
02:32:22,469 --> 02:32:20,800
is i see someone as

4491
02:32:24,550 --> 02:32:22,479
already accepting that consciousness is

4492
02:32:26,469 --> 02:32:24,560
one and that the ancient

4493
02:32:27,590 --> 02:32:26,479
indian text that he has grew up with

4494
02:32:30,309 --> 02:32:27,600
grown up with

4495
02:32:31,830 --> 02:32:30,319
is correct in some way shape or form and

4496
02:32:33,590 --> 02:32:31,840
and that's fine because it could be

4497
02:32:34,950 --> 02:32:33,600
like who knows right christianity could

4498
02:32:36,230 --> 02:32:34,960
be correct judaism could be correct

4499
02:32:36,870 --> 02:32:36,240
islam could be correct whatever whatever

4500
02:32:38,870 --> 02:32:36,880
it may be

4501
02:32:39,910 --> 02:32:38,880
but i see him as when he's interviewing

4502
02:32:42,550 --> 02:32:39,920
scientists

4503
02:32:43,429 --> 02:32:42,560
he's looking because he's been so hurt i

4504
02:32:45,429 --> 02:32:43,439
think i see someone

4505
02:32:47,190 --> 02:32:45,439
who's been so hurt by the accusations

4506
02:32:49,030 --> 02:32:47,200
from the 90s or early 2000s of being

4507
02:32:51,590 --> 02:32:49,040
unscientific and using wu-wu

4508
02:32:53,190 --> 02:32:51,600
that he now when he sees a scientist

4509
02:32:55,590 --> 02:32:53,200
that agrees with him

4510
02:32:57,429 --> 02:32:55,600
five percent in some interpretation he's

4511
02:32:58,309 --> 02:32:57,439
like can you can you elaborate on that

4512
02:33:00,230 --> 02:32:58,319
five percent

4513
02:33:02,150 --> 02:33:00,240
oh okay and so when when people accuse

4514
02:33:04,870 --> 02:33:02,160
me of saying that uh that that

4515
02:33:05,750 --> 02:33:04,880
that i'm saying unscientific bs what do

4516
02:33:07,990 --> 02:33:05,760
you say to that

4517
02:33:09,349 --> 02:33:08,000
he'll ask that question plenty and i see

4518
02:33:10,950 --> 02:33:09,359
it as

4519
02:33:12,950 --> 02:33:10,960
a little boy who's just been so hurt

4520
02:33:14,150 --> 02:33:12,960
that he wants the validation from the

4521
02:33:17,349 --> 02:33:14,160
scientific community

4522
02:33:19,110 --> 02:33:17,359
and so he's willing to interpret

4523
02:33:20,870 --> 02:33:19,120
what the scientist is saying in order to

4524
02:33:21,110 --> 02:33:20,880
validate what he already believes in and

4525
02:33:23,750 --> 02:33:21,120
or

4526
02:33:25,190 --> 02:33:23,760
his critics that's what i see now that's

4527
02:33:26,150 --> 02:33:25,200
almost like the union in me or the

4528
02:33:27,670 --> 02:33:26,160
freudian that's looking for the

4529
02:33:29,190 --> 02:33:27,680
unconscious motivations

4530
02:33:31,190 --> 02:33:29,200
yeah but i i can't help but see that i

4531
02:33:33,349 --> 02:33:31,200
also see this a bit in

4532
02:33:34,950 --> 02:33:33,359
almost anyone who has a world view that

4533
02:33:37,990 --> 02:33:34,960
they're they ardently defend

4534
02:33:40,070 --> 02:33:38,000
now there's great they should i'm an

4535
02:33:41,590 --> 02:33:40,080
apologist for apollo for apologists in

4536
02:33:42,710 --> 02:33:41,600
general because apologist means to

4537
02:33:43,910 --> 02:33:42,720
defend what you believe in with

4538
02:33:45,270 --> 02:33:43,920
justifications

4539
02:33:46,309 --> 02:33:45,280
and i think that you should if you

4540
02:33:48,070 --> 02:33:46,319
believe in something if you're an

4541
02:33:50,950 --> 02:33:48,080
intellectual you should justify it

4542
02:33:52,550 --> 02:33:50,960
but then there's some people who justify

4543
02:33:57,270 --> 02:33:52,560
it like let's say

4544
02:34:02,469 --> 02:34:00,630
it runs the gamut it's more than just

4545
02:34:04,389 --> 02:34:02,479
an intellectual justification it seems

4546
02:34:06,790 --> 02:34:04,399
more like defensiveness and it

4547
02:34:08,389 --> 02:34:06,800
ended and then i wonder how much of what

4548
02:34:10,230 --> 02:34:08,399
they believe is because they've

4549
02:34:11,910 --> 02:34:10,240
dispassionately took an assessment of

4550
02:34:13,830 --> 02:34:11,920
the data and come to the conclusion

4551
02:34:16,230 --> 02:34:13,840
rather than they have some predilection

4552
02:34:17,750 --> 02:34:16,240
or some predisposition much like you

4553
02:34:19,429 --> 02:34:17,760
said which is so interesting about

4554
02:34:22,389 --> 02:34:19,439
materialism

4555
02:34:23,830 --> 02:34:22,399
sam harris would say well look the way

4556
02:34:25,429 --> 02:34:23,840
that you can believe what i'm saying is

4557
02:34:26,309 --> 02:34:25,439
that it goes against my own interests

4558
02:34:27,990 --> 02:34:26,319
because

4559
02:34:29,990 --> 02:34:28,000
i would love to believe that

4560
02:34:31,510 --> 02:34:30,000
christianity was correct

4561
02:34:33,190 --> 02:34:31,520
so then if someone says that and they

4562
02:34:34,790 --> 02:34:33,200
don't believe it then you then that

4563
02:34:36,469 --> 02:34:34,800
lends a bit more credence but then at

4564
02:34:38,150 --> 02:34:36,479
the same time sam herrera says i don't

4565
02:34:38,870 --> 02:34:38,160
want to believe in a god that kills

4566
02:34:42,070 --> 02:34:38,880
people

4567
02:34:44,230 --> 02:34:42,080
so arbitrarily and also heaven

4568
02:34:45,750 --> 02:34:44,240
comes with hell in some interpretations

4569
02:34:47,429 --> 02:34:45,760
right and you said that about

4570
02:34:49,030 --> 02:34:47,439
materialism is that

4571
02:34:50,950 --> 02:34:49,040
this is extremely interesting in

4572
02:34:53,990 --> 02:34:50,960
materialism

4573
02:34:55,190 --> 02:34:54,000
there is comfort as much as the

4574
02:34:56,309 --> 02:34:55,200
atheist would say that there is no

4575
02:34:57,510 --> 02:34:56,319
comfort there's more comfort in

4576
02:34:59,990 --> 02:34:57,520
traditional religion

4577
02:35:01,190 --> 02:35:00,000
yet i don't agree with that because i am

4578
02:35:02,389 --> 02:35:01,200
such a rationalist

4579
02:35:03,910 --> 02:35:02,399
well there's comfort in knowing that

4580
02:35:05,030 --> 02:35:03,920
your life is going to end oh how's their

4581
02:35:05,349 --> 02:35:05,040
comfort in knowing my life is going to

4582
02:35:06,790 --> 02:35:05,359
end

4583
02:35:08,550 --> 02:35:06,800
because you don't know what is at the

4584
02:35:10,469 --> 02:35:08,560
other side you don't know if agony

4585
02:35:11,990 --> 02:35:10,479
awaits you infinitely infinite torment

4586
02:35:13,670 --> 02:35:12,000
or infinite pleasure you don't know

4587
02:35:15,270 --> 02:35:13,680
and so there is comfort in the certainty

4588
02:35:16,950 --> 02:35:15,280
that maybe this is it

4589
02:35:19,030 --> 02:35:16,960
that's so interesting i never heard it

4590
02:35:21,590 --> 02:35:19,040
posed that way before it

4591
02:35:23,429 --> 02:35:21,600
it's the elephant in the room and it's

4592
02:35:25,030 --> 02:35:23,439
such an enormous elephant

4593
02:35:26,870 --> 02:35:25,040
elephant that people don't see it they

4594
02:35:27,349 --> 02:35:26,880
only see a patch of skin in front of

4595
02:35:30,469 --> 02:35:27,359
them

4596
02:35:33,110 --> 02:35:30,479
because the elephant is giant

4597
02:35:34,870 --> 02:35:33,120
let's let's just put it this way and i'm

4598
02:35:37,830 --> 02:35:34,880
sure everybody will agree with this

4599
02:35:38,710 --> 02:35:37,840
because it's objectively the case the

4600
02:35:42,150 --> 02:35:38,720
single

4601
02:35:45,510 --> 02:35:42,160
greatest fear human beings have

4602
02:35:47,270 --> 02:35:45,520
always had of any generation before the

4603
02:35:50,230 --> 02:35:47,280
19th century the single

4604
02:35:52,389 --> 02:35:50,240
greatest greatest fear in the lives of

4605
02:35:55,590 --> 02:35:52,399
every human being

4606
02:35:58,790 --> 02:35:55,600
has been the experiential state

4607
02:35:59,670 --> 02:35:58,800
after bodily death the fear of what

4608
02:36:02,309 --> 02:35:59,680
comes after

4609
02:36:03,990 --> 02:36:02,319
is what have kept people in line and

4610
02:36:05,990 --> 02:36:04,000
turned the christian church into a

4611
02:36:06,630 --> 02:36:06,000
political institution of tremendous

4612
02:36:08,870 --> 02:36:06,640
power

4613
02:36:12,550 --> 02:36:08,880
to the point that it still has a country

4614
02:36:15,590 --> 02:36:15,110
it was the leveraging and the use of

4615
02:36:17,429 --> 02:36:15,600
that

4616
02:36:19,670 --> 02:36:17,439
fear of what will happen to you after

4617
02:36:21,830 --> 02:36:19,680
you die will you go to hell

4618
02:36:23,429 --> 02:36:21,840
or will you go to heaven would there be

4619
02:36:26,630 --> 02:36:23,439
monsters

4620
02:36:27,190 --> 02:36:26,640
that has been the greatest single fear

4621
02:36:30,230 --> 02:36:27,200
in the

4622
02:36:33,110 --> 02:36:30,240
history of humanity it has allowed

4623
02:36:34,070 --> 02:36:33,120
peoples to be controlled throughout

4624
02:36:36,950 --> 02:36:34,080
history

4625
02:36:37,990 --> 02:36:36,960
and it is the one thing that materialism

4626
02:36:41,110 --> 02:36:38,000
has taken

4627
02:36:43,830 --> 02:36:41,120
off the table it has nutrient

4628
02:36:44,950 --> 02:36:43,840
the greatest fear in the history of

4629
02:36:47,030 --> 02:36:44,960
humankind

4630
02:36:49,429 --> 02:36:47,040
it's off the table it's no longer

4631
02:36:50,150 --> 02:36:49,439
credible you do not need to worry about

4632
02:36:53,429 --> 02:36:50,160
that

4633
02:36:56,630 --> 02:36:53,439
this is a social historical

4634
02:36:59,990 --> 02:36:56,640
fact and a psychological fact

4635
02:37:01,510 --> 02:37:00,000
do you fear death and then now i do

4636
02:37:05,110 --> 02:37:01,520
right in this moment you do or do you

4637
02:37:08,309 --> 02:37:05,120
mean generally speaking i do look i am

4638
02:37:09,750 --> 02:37:08,319
as intellectually convinced as one can

4639
02:37:12,870 --> 02:37:09,760
possibly be

4640
02:37:14,630 --> 02:37:12,880
that my core subjectivity is

4641
02:37:17,190 --> 02:37:14,640
in your which is the same in you which

4642
02:37:20,790 --> 02:37:17,200
is the same in my cat and everywhere

4643
02:37:22,790 --> 02:37:20,800
is the one entity in the reduction base

4644
02:37:23,429 --> 02:37:22,800
in in other words all reality unfolds in

4645
02:37:30,389 --> 02:37:23,439
it

4646
02:37:32,950 --> 02:37:30,399
beginnings and sorry what has no way

4647
02:37:34,870 --> 02:37:32,960
no what what is the core subjectivity in

4648
02:37:37,270 --> 02:37:34,880
me is going nowhere

4649
02:37:38,309 --> 02:37:37,280
because everything that happens happens

4650
02:37:40,230 --> 02:37:38,319
in it

4651
02:37:42,070 --> 02:37:40,240
and it's not only my course objectivity

4652
02:37:43,670 --> 02:37:42,080
the course objectivity in me is the same

4653
02:37:46,550 --> 02:37:43,680
course objectivity in you

4654
02:37:48,389 --> 02:37:46,560
it's the one eye of the world that looks

4655
02:37:49,910 --> 02:37:48,399
out from every creature as schopenhauer

4656
02:37:52,469 --> 02:37:49,920
put it

4657
02:37:53,270 --> 02:37:52,479
so i'm as intellectually convinced as

4658
02:37:55,670 --> 02:37:53,280
one can be

4659
02:37:57,590 --> 02:37:55,680
that my subjectivity survives bodily

4660
02:38:01,190 --> 02:37:57,600
death and probably witnesses

4661
02:38:03,910 --> 02:38:01,200
the entire process now what is the best

4662
02:38:04,550 --> 02:38:03,920
and safe analog to death we have today

4663
02:38:06,389 --> 02:38:04,560
what's the

4664
02:38:07,590 --> 02:38:06,399
the one thing we can do that comes the

4665
02:38:09,750 --> 02:38:07,600
closest to death

4666
02:38:10,950 --> 02:38:09,760
physiologically and and still can be

4667
02:38:13,190 --> 02:38:10,960
done safely

4668
02:38:15,030 --> 02:38:13,200
let's hide those psychedelics the

4669
02:38:18,230 --> 02:38:15,040
psychedelics the way they operate is by

4670
02:38:21,349 --> 02:38:18,240
significantly reducing brain activity

4671
02:38:23,190 --> 02:38:21,359
not sorry not anesthesia

4672
02:38:25,429 --> 02:38:23,200
anesthesia is a dissociative it

4673
02:38:27,190 --> 02:38:25,439
increases noise levels in your brain

4674
02:38:28,710 --> 02:38:27,200
it doesn't necessarily reduce brain

4675
02:38:31,110 --> 02:38:28,720
activity

4676
02:38:33,030 --> 02:38:31,120
and there are there is a strong

4677
02:38:35,510 --> 02:38:33,040
scientific argument to be made that you

4678
02:38:38,309 --> 02:38:35,520
are not unconscious during anesthesia

4679
02:38:39,510 --> 02:38:38,319
uh you are just incoherent so you you

4680
02:38:42,630 --> 02:38:39,520
cannot focus

4681
02:38:44,630 --> 02:38:42,640
on any particular experience no no no it

4682
02:38:46,550 --> 02:38:44,640
means that you do not suffer

4683
02:38:47,990 --> 02:38:46,560
there is too much incoherence in brain

4684
02:38:50,790 --> 02:38:48,000
signals to form

4685
02:38:51,750 --> 02:38:50,800
the coherent experience of a profound

4686
02:38:53,429 --> 02:38:51,760
pain

4687
02:38:55,510 --> 02:38:53,439
it can't happen because the signal is

4688
02:38:56,950 --> 02:38:55,520
dispersed to your conscious self but

4689
02:38:58,230 --> 02:38:56,960
what if there are other parts of you

4690
02:38:59,590 --> 02:38:58,240
that are feeling it that can remember

4691
02:39:00,950 --> 02:38:59,600
much like when you have childhood trauma

4692
02:39:02,630 --> 02:39:00,960
and then you dissociate

4693
02:39:04,630 --> 02:39:02,640
there is a part of you that's filling

4694
02:39:06,309 --> 02:39:04,640
everything that can possibly be felt has

4695
02:39:07,670 --> 02:39:06,319
ever been felt and whatever be felt

4696
02:39:15,429 --> 02:39:07,680
right if it's almost unconsciousness

4697
02:39:18,550 --> 02:39:17,030
so the best model we have is

4698
02:39:21,910 --> 02:39:18,560
psychedelics actually not

4699
02:39:23,110 --> 02:39:21,920
not uh anesthesia because psychedelics

4700
02:39:24,790 --> 02:39:23,120
under neuroimaging

4701
02:39:27,910 --> 02:39:24,800
they have been proven every psychedelic

4702
02:39:29,510 --> 02:39:27,920
studied so far since 2012 until now

4703
02:39:31,110 --> 02:39:29,520
has have this consistent behavior brain

4704
02:39:33,830 --> 02:39:31,120
activity significantly reduces

4705
02:39:35,270 --> 02:39:33,840
especially in the default mode network

4706
02:39:37,349 --> 02:39:35,280
the part of your brain that has to do

4707
02:39:39,270 --> 02:39:37,359
with your individual sense of self

4708
02:39:40,469 --> 02:39:39,280
the part of your brain the process in

4709
02:39:44,710 --> 02:39:40,479
your brain that says

4710
02:39:48,150 --> 02:39:44,720
i am curt or i am uh bernardo

4711
02:39:50,950 --> 02:39:48,160
the re that part of brain activities is

4712
02:39:53,270 --> 02:39:50,960
smashed your brain goes to sleep in that

4713
02:39:53,990 --> 02:39:53,280
regard and and and i know from

4714
02:39:58,790 --> 02:39:54,000
experience

4715
02:40:01,830 --> 02:39:58,800
correlated with that

4716
02:40:04,950 --> 02:40:01,840
which is called ego dissolution

4717
02:40:07,830 --> 02:40:04,960
is an incredibly difficult

4718
02:40:10,309 --> 02:40:07,840
experience to undergo it's when you're

4719
02:40:12,550 --> 02:40:10,319
constantly dying and you're never dead

4720
02:40:13,990 --> 02:40:12,560
it's that feeling that of losing

4721
02:40:16,790 --> 02:40:14,000
everything that you are

4722
02:40:17,670 --> 02:40:16,800
or what have you experienced yeah i have

4723
02:40:19,429 --> 02:40:17,680
experienced

4724
02:40:21,269 --> 02:40:19,439
uh ego dissolution under high dose

4725
02:40:25,590 --> 02:40:21,279
psychedelics more than once

4726
02:40:31,590 --> 02:40:28,630
in a certain way yes in a certain way no

4727
02:40:33,110 --> 02:40:31,600
the feelings are never less powerful so

4728
02:40:35,269 --> 02:40:33,120
in that sense it does not

4729
02:40:37,110 --> 02:40:35,279
get easier the feelings are just as

4730
02:40:39,670 --> 02:40:37,120
intense i've experienced something

4731
02:40:40,309 --> 02:40:39,680
akin to eco death where it's like i'm in

4732
02:40:42,389 --> 02:40:40,319
a oneness

4733
02:40:44,469 --> 02:40:42,399
i'm in a void but it wasn't black it was

4734
02:40:46,230 --> 02:40:44,479
white but i felt like

4735
02:40:47,670 --> 02:40:46,240
almost like the tentacles of an octopus

4736
02:40:49,670 --> 02:40:47,680
and then you go back to the head

4737
02:40:51,269 --> 02:40:49,680
and i couldn't explain it any other way

4738
02:40:53,269 --> 02:40:51,279
and everything made sense

4739
02:40:54,710 --> 02:40:53,279
you get this profound realization that

4740
02:40:56,150 --> 02:40:54,720
all the laws of physics are the way

4741
02:40:57,590 --> 02:40:56,160
because of so-and-so but then you forget

4742
02:40:58,790 --> 02:40:57,600
so and so and then even if you do

4743
02:40:59,910 --> 02:40:58,800
remember it days later you're like that

4744
02:41:02,550 --> 02:40:59,920
doesn't make sense

4745
02:41:04,309 --> 02:41:02,560
discard it the the tentacles are the

4746
02:41:06,469 --> 02:41:04,319
dissociative pathways and you are

4747
02:41:08,150 --> 02:41:06,479
undergoing a reduction in dissociation

4748
02:41:09,510 --> 02:41:08,160
and your mind presents itself to you in

4749
02:41:10,710 --> 02:41:09,520
a pictorial manner

4750
02:41:12,790 --> 02:41:10,720
and then you're going back from the

4751
02:41:15,910 --> 02:41:12,800
tentacles to the head to the godhead

4752
02:41:17,110 --> 02:41:15,920
from the dissociated tentacles it makes

4753
02:41:20,469 --> 02:41:17,120
all sense of the world

4754
02:41:22,230 --> 02:41:20,479
but look nobody has ever physically died

4755
02:41:24,070 --> 02:41:22,240
from psychedelic ingestion it's not

4756
02:41:25,110 --> 02:41:24,080
physically possible people die of the

4757
02:41:28,309 --> 02:41:25,120
stupidity they do

4758
02:41:30,150 --> 02:41:28,319
while under the influence but your ego

4759
02:41:32,710 --> 02:41:30,160
does die

4760
02:41:33,510 --> 02:41:32,720
you as a body don't but your ego your

4761
02:41:35,830 --> 02:41:33,520
sense of an

4762
02:41:36,870 --> 02:41:35,840
individual agency of being an individual

4763
02:41:39,910 --> 02:41:36,880
agent

4764
02:41:42,950 --> 02:41:39,920
that sense is smashed to smithereens

4765
02:41:43,349 --> 02:41:42,960
and it feels as death because it smashes

4766
02:41:46,070 --> 02:41:43,359
that

4767
02:41:46,870 --> 02:41:46,080
which you think you are and it feels

4768
02:41:48,870 --> 02:41:46,880
horrible

4769
02:41:50,630 --> 02:41:48,880
so doing it repeatedly it feels as

4770
02:41:51,670 --> 02:41:50,640
horrible but there is one silver lining

4771
02:41:53,269 --> 02:41:51,680
and that is

4772
02:41:54,550 --> 02:41:53,279
you know what's happening and there's a

4773
02:41:55,429 --> 02:41:54,560
little voice in the back of your head

4774
02:41:58,150 --> 02:41:55,439
saying

4775
02:41:59,110 --> 02:41:58,160
just hang on tight this will pass and

4776
02:42:01,830 --> 02:41:59,120
there is bliss

4777
02:42:03,349 --> 02:42:01,840
on the other side and there is because

4778
02:42:04,389 --> 02:42:03,359
when your sense of individual self

4779
02:42:07,429 --> 02:42:04,399
dissolves

4780
02:42:09,910 --> 02:42:07,439
you are the universe and that such

4781
02:42:12,389 --> 02:42:09,920
it's the greatest joy one can imagine

4782
02:42:13,349 --> 02:42:12,399
it's a profound sense of identification

4783
02:42:15,269 --> 02:42:13,359
with the true

4784
02:42:16,710 --> 02:42:15,279
reality and everything else until that

4785
02:42:19,110 --> 02:42:16,720
point was an illusion

4786
02:42:20,550 --> 02:42:19,120
and it's a reality of total acceptance

4787
02:42:22,870 --> 02:42:20,560
total integration

4788
02:42:23,990 --> 02:42:22,880
um because you are that which needs to

4789
02:42:26,389 --> 02:42:24,000
accept

4790
02:42:27,349 --> 02:42:26,399
so it completes an unconditional

4791
02:42:30,309 --> 02:42:27,359
acceptance

4792
02:42:30,790 --> 02:42:30,319
uh but before that heaven there is the

4793
02:42:34,790 --> 02:42:30,800
hell

4794
02:42:36,630 --> 02:42:34,800
of ego dissociation parting with that

4795
02:42:38,230 --> 02:42:36,640
what did i say ego dissociation it meant

4796
02:42:40,070 --> 02:42:38,240
ego dissolution

4797
02:42:41,990 --> 02:42:40,080
which corresponds to a reduction in

4798
02:42:43,349 --> 02:42:42,000
dissociation because the ego is the

4799
02:42:45,030 --> 02:42:43,359
dissociative process

4800
02:42:48,630 --> 02:42:45,040
so when the ego dissolves it's the

4801
02:42:51,750 --> 02:42:48,640
dissociation that is dissolving

4802
02:42:52,870 --> 02:42:51,760
a reuniting a reintegration which which

4803
02:42:55,349 --> 02:42:52,880
is blissful

4804
02:42:56,790 --> 02:42:55,359
except that in that in-between stage it

4805
02:42:59,429 --> 02:42:56,800
feels like you're being

4806
02:43:00,630 --> 02:42:59,439
annihilated your soul is being

4807
02:43:03,429 --> 02:43:00,640
annihilated

4808
02:43:03,910 --> 02:43:03,439
and and it's the worst experience that i

4809
02:43:06,150 --> 02:43:03,920
think

4810
02:43:07,510 --> 02:43:06,160
that i have ever had no worse than that

4811
02:43:08,870 --> 02:43:07,520
is the re-entries when you are in the

4812
02:43:10,150 --> 02:43:08,880
bliss and then you come back to the ego

4813
02:43:13,030 --> 02:43:10,160
that's worse

4814
02:43:14,150 --> 02:43:13,040
um but ego dissolution is terrible and

4815
02:43:17,590 --> 02:43:14,160
uh

4816
02:43:19,830 --> 02:43:17,600
and my own theory informed me that

4817
02:43:22,550 --> 02:43:19,840
physical death real death permanent

4818
02:43:25,830 --> 02:43:22,560
death when you die and you're dead

4819
02:43:28,710 --> 02:43:25,840
um that's the ultimate ego dissolution

4820
02:43:29,510 --> 02:43:28,720
so i know bliss is coming and i will

4821
02:43:31,190 --> 02:43:29,520
know blizzcon

4822
02:43:33,190 --> 02:43:31,200
and i'm thankful to psyched alex for

4823
02:43:34,870 --> 02:43:33,200
that for not telling me this only

4824
02:43:38,630 --> 02:43:34,880
conceptually but

4825
02:43:40,550 --> 02:43:38,640
showing me what it is so being convinced

4826
02:43:45,190 --> 02:43:40,560
to the bone that ultimately

4827
02:43:47,910 --> 02:43:45,200
bliss is coming but i shiver

4828
02:43:49,750 --> 02:43:47,920
by thinking of what ultimate ego

4829
02:43:53,030 --> 02:43:49,760
dissolution might feel like

4830
02:43:55,590 --> 02:43:53,040
and i dread it and i fear it

4831
02:43:56,469 --> 02:43:55,600
profoundly and i didn't fear it when i

4832
02:43:59,190 --> 02:43:56,479
was a sort of

4833
02:43:59,670 --> 02:43:59,200
unthinking materialist by default

4834
02:44:01,110 --> 02:43:59,680
because

4835
02:44:02,950 --> 02:44:01,120
there's literally nothing to fear when

4836
02:44:05,269 --> 02:44:02,960
you're you're dead

4837
02:44:06,630 --> 02:44:05,279
there is nobody there to feel bad it

4838
02:44:07,990 --> 02:44:06,640
takes such strength to admit that

4839
02:44:08,870 --> 02:44:08,000
because most people are the opposite

4840
02:44:10,389 --> 02:44:08,880
where they'll say

4841
02:44:12,150 --> 02:44:10,399
i was fearful of death when i was a

4842
02:44:13,429 --> 02:44:12,160
materialist then i died with ego

4843
02:44:16,870 --> 02:44:13,439
dissolution

4844
02:44:18,230 --> 02:44:16,880
back and i realized okay well death is

4845
02:44:20,309 --> 02:44:18,240
just another state

4846
02:44:22,309 --> 02:44:20,319
that is not much different than this and

4847
02:44:23,990 --> 02:44:22,319
it's blissful and so on

4848
02:44:25,990 --> 02:44:24,000
well you know if what you told me about

4849
02:44:26,550 --> 02:44:26,000
samara is saying that you can trust what

4850
02:44:29,670 --> 02:44:26,560
he says

4851
02:44:32,630 --> 02:44:29,680
because it goes against what he wishes

4852
02:44:34,150 --> 02:44:32,640
if that's true i mean that's nonsensical

4853
02:44:35,830 --> 02:44:34,160
even if it's true that he

4854
02:44:37,750 --> 02:44:35,840
that he thinks that i mean it's the

4855
02:44:40,790 --> 02:44:37,760
ultimate logical fallacy

4856
02:44:42,550 --> 02:44:40,800
uh uh this is not a logical argument for

4857
02:44:44,630 --> 02:44:42,560
the validity of your position to say

4858
02:44:46,150 --> 02:44:44,640
well i fear it so yes i could apply that

4859
02:44:47,750 --> 02:44:46,160
to myself and you're you're doing me the

4860
02:44:48,550 --> 02:44:47,760
favor of doing that you're being very

4861
02:44:51,590 --> 02:44:48,560
kind to me

4862
02:44:53,830 --> 02:44:51,600
but to be very honest kurt i don't think

4863
02:44:56,950 --> 02:44:53,840
this means anything it has no

4864
02:44:58,550 --> 02:44:56,960
logical force whether i like the

4865
02:45:00,550 --> 02:44:58,560
conclusion or not

4866
02:45:02,469 --> 02:45:00,560
it has no bearing on the force of my

4867
02:45:04,070 --> 02:45:02,479
argument for that conclusion

4868
02:45:05,510 --> 02:45:04,080
people should look at my argument does

4869
02:45:07,429 --> 02:45:05,520
my argument hold water

4870
02:45:09,030 --> 02:45:07,439
so if some harris thinks i should trust

4871
02:45:09,349 --> 02:45:09,040
what he says because it goes against

4872
02:45:12,469 --> 02:45:09,359
what

4873
02:45:15,110 --> 02:45:12,479
i don't give a

4874
02:45:16,469 --> 02:45:15,120
damn what you wish or don't wish tell me

4875
02:45:17,269 --> 02:45:16,479
your argument i would judge your

4876
02:45:19,510 --> 02:45:17,279
argument

4877
02:45:21,670 --> 02:45:19,520
not how you feel about it no i agree i

4878
02:45:24,389 --> 02:45:21,680
agree so the fact that i feel bad

4879
02:45:26,150 --> 02:45:24,399
about the idealist sense of death that

4880
02:45:28,469 --> 02:45:26,160
consciousness persists and we want to go

4881
02:45:29,910 --> 02:45:28,479
you go the solution i do fear that and

4882
02:45:33,190 --> 02:45:29,920
i'm saying that to you not because i'm

4883
02:45:36,550 --> 02:45:33,200
trying to promote myself on the other

4884
02:45:39,510 --> 02:45:36,560
precisely the contrary but i don't think

4885
02:45:41,269 --> 02:45:39,520
you or anybody should construe this as

4886
02:45:42,150 --> 02:45:41,279
something that helps the force of my

4887
02:45:44,230 --> 02:45:42,160
argument it

4888
02:45:45,429 --> 02:45:44,240
shouldn't my argument hopefully is

4889
02:45:47,349 --> 02:45:45,439
objective how i

4890
02:45:50,150 --> 02:45:47,359
feel about its implications should be

4891
02:45:51,590 --> 02:45:50,160
irrelevant it is relevant to me

4892
02:45:53,349 --> 02:45:51,600
when people go in states and they say

4893
02:45:54,790 --> 02:45:53,359
that what i experienced was real it was

4894
02:45:56,550 --> 02:45:54,800
more real than this

4895
02:45:59,269 --> 02:45:56,560
you talked about this a few times then

4896
02:46:01,190 --> 02:45:59,279
we dismissed that reality

4897
02:46:02,790 --> 02:46:01,200
should we be now there are good reasons

4898
02:46:04,790 --> 02:46:02,800
to dismiss it because

4899
02:46:05,990 --> 02:46:04,800
i imagine well this is just a

4900
02:46:08,550 --> 02:46:06,000
speculation on my part

4901
02:46:09,269 --> 02:46:08,560
though it's though there's some basis to

4902
02:46:11,910 --> 02:46:09,279
it i think

4903
02:46:13,990 --> 02:46:11,920
professor john verviki said that the

4904
02:46:15,349 --> 02:46:14,000
sense of realness can be induced

4905
02:46:16,950 --> 02:46:15,359
there's a cortical loop inside your

4906
02:46:17,750 --> 02:46:16,960
brain and the faster it goes there's a

4907
02:46:19,110 --> 02:46:17,760
certain

4908
02:46:20,950 --> 02:46:19,120
cortical loop i don't recall which one

4909
02:46:22,710 --> 02:46:20,960
the faster it is the more you feel like

4910
02:46:24,150 --> 02:46:22,720
that's real whatever it is

4911
02:46:26,230 --> 02:46:24,160
so then you could say well psychedelic

4912
02:46:27,990 --> 02:46:26,240
spin that wheel quicker so you feel as

4913
02:46:31,269 --> 02:46:28,000
if it's real but it's not necessarily

4914
02:46:33,590 --> 02:46:31,279
yeah yeah yeah

4915
02:46:34,469 --> 02:46:33,600
so then how do we okay yeah my

4916
02:46:36,389 --> 02:46:34,479
relationship with

4917
02:46:38,309 --> 02:46:36,399
psychedelic noses is probably the

4918
02:46:40,630 --> 02:46:38,319
reverse of what most

4919
02:46:43,590 --> 02:46:40,640
psychonauts would report i'm not really

4920
02:46:46,309 --> 02:46:43,600
a psychonaut i did that as a sort of a

4921
02:46:48,070 --> 02:46:46,319
part of a research effort it's not

4922
02:46:48,550 --> 02:46:48,080
something that i was exultant about

4923
02:46:50,550 --> 02:46:48,560
doing

4924
02:46:51,830 --> 02:46:50,560
it's you know if i'm talking if i'm

4925
02:46:53,590 --> 02:46:51,840
going to talk about consciousness i

4926
02:46:55,510 --> 02:46:53,600
better know what i'm talking about

4927
02:46:57,110 --> 02:46:55,520
so i felt obliged to do that and it has

4928
02:46:59,030 --> 02:46:57,120
been contributed a lot

4929
02:47:00,389 --> 02:46:59,040
um to my development as a person and so

4930
02:47:01,429 --> 02:47:00,399
i'm thankful to psychedelics for that

4931
02:47:02,070 --> 02:47:01,439
even though i think it's not for

4932
02:47:05,030 --> 02:47:02,080
everyone

4933
02:47:06,550 --> 02:47:05,040
and should be done with extreme care um

4934
02:47:09,429 --> 02:47:06,560
when it's not legal

4935
02:47:10,389 --> 02:47:09,439
um my sense of psychedelic knows this is

4936
02:47:13,510 --> 02:47:10,399
the following there is

4937
02:47:16,070 --> 02:47:13,520
no doubt that when you are

4938
02:47:18,230 --> 02:47:16,080
deep within a trip when you pass those

4939
02:47:18,950 --> 02:47:18,240
initial stages which are hallucinatory

4940
02:47:20,309 --> 02:47:18,960
in nature but

4941
02:47:23,910 --> 02:47:20,319
when you pass through that when you

4942
02:47:27,030 --> 02:47:23,920
break through really to the other side

4943
02:47:30,389 --> 02:47:27,040
there is no doubting that that

4944
02:47:32,469 --> 02:47:30,399
feeling that this is ultra real

4945
02:47:34,150 --> 02:47:32,479
this is a lot more real than where i was

4946
02:47:35,830 --> 02:47:34,160
coming from i was completely deluded i

4947
02:47:38,389 --> 02:47:35,840
was in some kind of trance

4948
02:47:39,110 --> 02:47:38,399
and now i see what's really real so that

4949
02:47:42,070 --> 02:47:39,120
experience

4950
02:47:44,790 --> 02:47:42,080
exists there's no doubt about that can

4951
02:47:47,510 --> 02:47:44,800
you explain it away

4952
02:47:48,790 --> 02:47:47,520
no doubt about that either whether the

4953
02:47:51,110 --> 02:47:48,800
explanations are

4954
02:47:52,950 --> 02:47:51,120
true or not i reserve judgment but can

4955
02:47:53,910 --> 02:47:52,960
you in principle explain that sense of

4956
02:47:55,349 --> 02:47:53,920
reality away

4957
02:47:56,870 --> 02:47:55,359
in the way you suggested like something

4958
02:47:57,990 --> 02:47:56,880
spinning some mental process spinning

4959
02:48:00,870 --> 02:47:58,000
faster in your brain

4960
02:48:01,269 --> 02:48:00,880
possibly is that what is relevant about

4961
02:48:03,750 --> 02:48:01,279
this

4962
02:48:04,710 --> 02:48:03,760
i would say no it's completely relevant

4963
02:48:06,550 --> 02:48:04,720
let me tell you

4964
02:48:08,070 --> 02:48:06,560
what is relevant about that sense of

4965
02:48:11,750 --> 02:48:08,080
realness

4966
02:48:15,030 --> 02:48:11,760
you have now

4967
02:48:16,150 --> 02:48:15,040
so if you can explain that away on the

4968
02:48:19,190 --> 02:48:16,160
same basis

4969
02:48:22,230 --> 02:48:19,200
you explain you can explain this away

4970
02:48:24,070 --> 02:48:22,240
right now so the message of the

4971
02:48:26,950 --> 02:48:24,080
psychedelic experience from me

4972
02:48:28,150 --> 02:48:26,960
is not that that is real and this is an

4973
02:48:36,950 --> 02:48:28,160
illusion

4974
02:48:38,630 --> 02:48:36,960
do you see what i mean if you think

4975
02:48:40,630 --> 02:48:38,640
flip flip it around turn it the other

4976
02:48:41,110 --> 02:48:40,640
way around the message is not that's

4977
02:48:44,790 --> 02:48:41,120
real

4978
02:48:47,830 --> 02:48:44,800
way we

4979
02:48:50,710 --> 02:48:47,840
think it is real this too

4980
02:48:52,150 --> 02:48:50,720
is a mental configuration it's something

4981
02:48:55,030 --> 02:48:52,160
that mind is doing

4982
02:48:56,230 --> 02:48:55,040
so if mind can do something that makes

4983
02:48:58,790 --> 02:48:56,240
you have that sense of

4984
02:49:00,469 --> 02:48:58,800
ultra reality in a psychedelic state and

4985
02:49:02,070 --> 02:49:00,479
you explain that a way by saying it's

4986
02:49:04,870 --> 02:49:02,080
just mind

4987
02:49:06,790 --> 02:49:04,880
please be consistent with yourself and

4988
02:49:09,269 --> 02:49:06,800
do the same here

4989
02:49:10,389 --> 02:49:09,279
if your sense of reality now is less

4990
02:49:12,550 --> 02:49:10,399
real than that

4991
02:49:14,710 --> 02:49:12,560
please tell yourself inform yourself

4992
02:49:19,670 --> 02:49:14,720
this too is a trick of mine

4993
02:49:23,269 --> 02:49:21,190
let's talk about the malleability of

4994
02:49:25,429 --> 02:49:23,279
reality how much we can control it

4995
02:49:26,950 --> 02:49:25,439
because in a dream

4996
02:49:29,030 --> 02:49:26,960
or even in a psychedelic state where it

4997
02:49:29,910 --> 02:49:29,040
seems like what we're experiencing is

4998
02:49:32,710 --> 02:49:29,920
entirely real

4999
02:49:33,590 --> 02:49:32,720
now that's false when it comes to dreams

5000
02:49:34,950 --> 02:49:33,600
i don't recall

5001
02:49:36,710 --> 02:49:34,960
a dream where i felt like it was more

5002
02:49:37,990 --> 02:49:36,720
real than reality

5003
02:49:40,309 --> 02:49:38,000
but either way in a dream you can have a

5004
02:49:42,710 --> 02:49:40,319
loose dream you can control

5005
02:49:44,389 --> 02:49:42,720
that doesn't seem to apply here but yet

5006
02:49:45,750 --> 02:49:44,399
i hear many mystics and so on say that

5007
02:49:47,110 --> 02:49:45,760
this is a dream we need to wake up and

5008
02:49:48,150 --> 02:49:47,120
that's what enlightenment is or nirvana

5009
02:49:51,590 --> 02:49:48,160
and so on

5010
02:49:53,830 --> 02:49:51,600
so what i'm curious about is

5011
02:49:54,790 --> 02:49:53,840
it seems fair it seems evident to people

5012
02:49:57,510 --> 02:49:54,800
like me and you

5013
02:49:59,110 --> 02:49:57,520
that we can control our environment

5014
02:50:01,110 --> 02:49:59,120
around us with will

5015
02:50:02,389 --> 02:50:01,120
so that is with our thoughts now it's

5016
02:50:04,070 --> 02:50:02,399
not infinite

5017
02:50:05,990 --> 02:50:04,080
because i cannot grow a new arm from my

5018
02:50:08,469 --> 02:50:06,000
chest like a mortal kombat character

5019
02:50:10,469 --> 02:50:08,479
but but then that means that there are

5020
02:50:12,030 --> 02:50:10,479
limitations now what i'm wondering is

5021
02:50:13,910 --> 02:50:12,040
what are those limitations are those

5022
02:50:15,910 --> 02:50:13,920
limitations true

5023
02:50:17,269 --> 02:50:15,920
can one overcome virtually any

5024
02:50:20,870 --> 02:50:17,279
limitation with

5025
02:50:24,389 --> 02:50:20,880
sheer will what does that look like

5026
02:50:28,469 --> 02:50:24,399
i don't think so and i think there is a

5027
02:50:30,389 --> 02:50:28,479
very abundant evidence to the contrary

5028
02:50:32,309 --> 02:50:30,399
the essence of your question is can the

5029
02:50:33,830 --> 02:50:32,319
ego control everything can the ego

5030
02:50:36,469 --> 02:50:33,840
control the rest of mind

5031
02:50:37,110 --> 02:50:36,479
dissociated and not dissociated aspects

5032
02:50:39,510 --> 02:50:37,120
of it

5033
02:50:41,750 --> 02:50:39,520
i would say it's very fairly evident

5034
02:50:44,950 --> 02:50:41,760
that it cannot

5035
02:50:47,510 --> 02:50:44,960
look we can't control our dreams

5036
02:50:49,830 --> 02:50:47,520
most dreams even when you're having a

5037
02:50:51,110 --> 02:50:49,840
lucid dream often you can't control it i

5038
02:50:54,150 --> 02:50:51,120
have had

5039
02:50:57,429 --> 02:50:54,160
many lucid dreams when i was younger

5040
02:50:59,110 --> 02:50:57,439
of a dog running after me

5041
02:51:01,269 --> 02:50:59,120
and i knew it was a lucid dream and i

5042
02:51:02,950 --> 02:51:01,279
was like oh man i just need to wake up

5043
02:51:04,469 --> 02:51:02,960
wake up wake up and i couldn't wake up

5044
02:51:06,550 --> 02:51:04,479
and i couldn't stop the dog even though

5045
02:51:08,550 --> 02:51:06,560
i knew it was a lucid dream

5046
02:51:09,830 --> 02:51:08,560
kurt we can't control our thoughts you

5047
02:51:10,550 --> 02:51:09,840
don't know where your next thought is

5048
02:51:12,150 --> 02:51:10,560
coming from

5049
02:51:15,110 --> 02:51:12,160
you can't control your fears your

5050
02:51:17,030 --> 02:51:15,120
emotions you can't control your desires

5051
02:51:18,550 --> 02:51:17,040
you can act on them but you can't choose

5052
02:51:22,070 --> 02:51:18,560
what you desire

5053
02:51:23,670 --> 02:51:22,080
you can't choose that otherwise we would

5054
02:51:27,030 --> 02:51:23,680
all be choosing to desire

5055
02:51:29,429 --> 02:51:27,040
to desire exactly that which we have

5056
02:51:30,389 --> 02:51:29,439
you can't control our fantasies our

5057
02:51:33,510 --> 02:51:30,399
imagination

5058
02:51:33,910 --> 02:51:33,520
a schizophrenic a person who for me is

5059
02:51:36,469 --> 02:51:33,920
just

5060
02:51:37,910 --> 02:51:36,479
a a human being with a different

5061
02:51:38,389 --> 02:51:37,920
different settings but not different

5062
02:51:42,950 --> 02:51:38,399
from

5063
02:51:46,230 --> 02:51:42,960
hallucinations

5064
02:51:48,070 --> 02:51:46,240
um we can't control our minds let alone

5065
02:51:50,870 --> 02:51:48,080
the world

5066
02:51:52,630 --> 02:51:50,880
we have very very little control of our

5067
02:51:54,630 --> 02:51:52,640
own minds if you think of it

5068
02:51:56,070 --> 02:51:54,640
this idea that the difference between

5069
02:51:57,590 --> 02:51:56,080
reality and dream

5070
02:51:59,349 --> 02:51:57,600
is that we can control a dream and you

5071
02:52:02,070 --> 02:51:59,359
can't control reality it's

5072
02:52:02,550 --> 02:52:02,080
based it's quite a widespread intuition

5073
02:52:04,550 --> 02:52:02,560
but

5074
02:52:06,070 --> 02:52:04,560
it's surprising how quickly it melts

5075
02:52:09,030 --> 02:52:06,080
away if you just give it

5076
02:52:10,630 --> 02:52:09,040
some thought um we can't control the

5077
02:52:11,429 --> 02:52:10,640
dreams just like we can't control

5078
02:52:13,510 --> 02:52:11,439
reality

5079
02:52:15,110 --> 02:52:13,520
we can't control even the thoughts we

5080
02:52:18,389 --> 02:52:15,120
have in this reality

5081
02:52:19,030 --> 02:52:18,399
we can't control our opinions our

5082
02:52:21,429 --> 02:52:19,040
choices

5083
02:52:22,790 --> 02:52:21,439
seem to be limited to practical

5084
02:52:24,710 --> 02:52:22,800
practicalities like

5085
02:52:27,190 --> 02:52:24,720
i seem to be able to choose my mortgage

5086
02:52:28,870 --> 02:52:27,200
package i seem to be able to choose

5087
02:52:31,269 --> 02:52:28,880
which car would drive

5088
02:52:32,790 --> 02:52:31,279
can i choose my partner no i can't even

5089
02:52:33,990 --> 02:52:32,800
choose my partner i don't i don't choose

5090
02:52:36,710 --> 02:52:34,000
who i fall in love with

5091
02:52:38,389 --> 02:52:36,720
yeah yeah i i'm assuming that we're

5092
02:52:39,269 --> 02:52:38,399
having a bit of a conflict with what it

5093
02:52:41,030 --> 02:52:39,279
means to be i

5094
02:52:43,670 --> 02:52:41,040
what is the i choosing because that's

5095
02:52:45,269 --> 02:52:43,680
the exactly you go you go

5096
02:52:47,910 --> 02:52:45,279
it's because the eye we think is

5097
02:52:50,550 --> 02:52:47,920
choosing doesn't even exist

5098
02:52:51,429 --> 02:52:50,560
it's a dissociative condition it's not

5099
02:52:54,150 --> 02:52:51,439
real

5100
02:52:55,590 --> 02:52:54,160
it's an appearance a natural appearance

5101
02:52:57,830 --> 02:52:55,600
a natural process

5102
02:52:59,269 --> 02:52:57,840
registered by us as something that seems

5103
02:53:01,910 --> 02:52:59,279
to be real but it's not

5104
02:53:03,349 --> 02:53:01,920
it's reducible it's explainable in terms

5105
02:53:06,230 --> 02:53:03,359
of a broader mind

5106
02:53:07,990 --> 02:53:06,240
so the i that chooses is not even there

5107
02:53:09,429 --> 02:53:08,000
how can it possibly choose

5108
02:53:11,110 --> 02:53:09,439
of course it's not choosing doesn't

5109
02:53:12,710 --> 02:53:11,120
exist look

5110
02:53:15,110 --> 02:53:12,720
did i choose to write the books i wrote

5111
02:53:16,870 --> 02:53:15,120
no i didn't did they choose to

5112
02:53:18,230 --> 02:53:16,880
to be working for essentia foundation

5113
02:53:19,990 --> 02:53:18,240
today i didn't

5114
02:53:21,429 --> 02:53:20,000
oh what did i choose to be an engineer

5115
02:53:23,190 --> 02:53:21,439
essentia foundation

5116
02:53:25,349 --> 02:53:23,200
it's a foundation dedicated to promoting

5117
02:53:28,309 --> 02:53:25,359
idealism i didn't choose that

5118
02:53:29,269 --> 02:53:28,319
and i i have only achieved peace in my

5119
02:53:32,309 --> 02:53:29,279
life

5120
02:53:35,110 --> 02:53:32,319
by how to say

5121
02:53:37,590 --> 02:53:35,120
by accepting that that which i

5122
02:53:40,150 --> 02:53:37,600
ordinarily think as i

5123
02:53:41,110 --> 02:53:40,160
is not choosing anything in my life and

5124
02:53:42,950 --> 02:53:41,120
there is freedom

5125
02:53:44,309 --> 02:53:42,960
and liberation in that acceptance

5126
02:53:45,590 --> 02:53:44,319
because there

5127
02:53:48,150 --> 02:53:45,600
there is a sense in which you let

5128
02:53:50,550 --> 02:53:48,160
responsibility go

5129
02:53:51,990 --> 02:53:50,560
that you are riding a wave and you're

5130
02:53:54,790 --> 02:53:52,000
not choosing where the wave is going

5131
02:53:56,630 --> 02:53:54,800
your only choice is do i swim against it

5132
02:53:58,070 --> 02:53:56,640
or do i go with it and if you go with it

5133
02:53:58,870 --> 02:53:58,080
you have a higher you have an easier

5134
02:54:01,110 --> 02:53:58,880
time

5135
02:54:02,710 --> 02:54:01,120
that's about it uh but you're not going

5136
02:54:04,710 --> 02:54:02,720
to change the direction in which you're

5137
02:54:06,070 --> 02:54:04,720
going because the wave overpowers you in

5138
02:54:07,510 --> 02:54:06,080
union terminology

5139
02:54:09,510 --> 02:54:07,520
what's choosing is the collective

5140
02:54:11,110 --> 02:54:09,520
unconscious it's what we call the

5141
02:54:13,030 --> 02:54:11,120
unconscious it's not unconscious at all

5142
02:54:15,910 --> 02:54:13,040
what the young mentor was is the self

5143
02:54:17,110 --> 02:54:15,920
the known self-reflective parts of mind

5144
02:54:18,870 --> 02:54:17,120
the parts of mind that

5145
02:54:21,349 --> 02:54:18,880
are not accessible through explicit

5146
02:54:22,230 --> 02:54:21,359
introspection but it's consciousness it

5147
02:54:24,710 --> 02:54:22,240
is conscious

5148
02:54:25,269 --> 02:54:24,720
and young used the word psychic for it

5149
02:54:27,349 --> 02:54:25,279
it is

5150
02:54:28,710 --> 02:54:27,359
psychic it's psychic in nature meaning

5151
02:54:30,469 --> 02:54:28,720
it's experiential

5152
02:54:31,910 --> 02:54:30,479
but it's not accessible through explicit

5153
02:54:34,309 --> 02:54:31,920
introspection so

5154
02:54:35,510 --> 02:54:34,319
it is that which is choosing it is the

5155
02:54:37,750 --> 02:54:35,520
connective unconscious

5156
02:54:38,950 --> 02:54:37,760
it is the last dissociated parts of our

5157
02:54:39,910 --> 02:54:38,960
minds or the completely known

5158
02:54:42,790 --> 02:54:39,920
dissociated

5159
02:54:44,469 --> 02:54:42,800
mind at large that's the natural wave

5160
02:54:46,150 --> 02:54:44,479
remember i am a naturalist

5161
02:54:48,070 --> 02:54:46,160
and nature is a big wave it's going

5162
02:54:49,590 --> 02:54:48,080
somewhere we can choose to swim with it

5163
02:54:50,389 --> 02:54:49,600
or swim against it you can choose to be

5164
02:54:52,309 --> 02:54:50,399
tools of it

5165
02:54:53,510 --> 02:54:52,319
or to rebel against it and lose you're

5166
02:54:54,790 --> 02:54:53,520
guaranteed to lose

5167
02:54:56,630 --> 02:54:54,800
you're super interesting super

5168
02:54:58,309 --> 02:54:56,640
interesting so you're saying that nature

5169
02:54:59,190 --> 02:54:58,319
is this huge force and it generally

5170
02:55:01,030 --> 02:54:59,200
controls you

5171
02:55:02,790 --> 02:55:01,040
way more than you think you are an

5172
02:55:03,510 --> 02:55:02,800
aspect of it so you're not even separate

5173
02:55:05,269 --> 02:55:03,520
from it

5174
02:55:07,030 --> 02:55:05,279
so even to say it controls you is

5175
02:55:09,670 --> 02:55:07,040
already a categorical mistake

5176
02:55:10,550 --> 02:55:09,680
you're not distinct from it but you just

5177
02:55:12,950 --> 02:55:10,560
have a

5178
02:55:13,590 --> 02:55:12,960
hallucinated narrative about what you

5179
02:55:16,550 --> 02:55:13,600
are

5180
02:55:19,030 --> 02:55:16,560
in other words nature has a hallucinated

5181
02:55:21,590 --> 02:55:19,040
narrative about what it is

5182
02:55:23,190 --> 02:55:21,600
and it goes in conflict against itself

5183
02:55:25,110 --> 02:55:23,200
because of it

5184
02:55:27,190 --> 02:55:25,120
choices are instinctive there is

5185
02:55:27,510 --> 02:55:27,200
something instinctive that runs through

5186
02:55:29,590 --> 02:55:27,520
you

5187
02:55:30,950 --> 02:55:29,600
and is calling the shots all the

5188
02:55:33,269 --> 02:55:30,960
important shots

5189
02:55:35,349 --> 02:55:33,279
the problem is we think it is us

5190
02:55:35,910 --> 02:55:35,359
choosing it so we rebel against it or we

5191
02:55:39,030 --> 02:55:35,920
regret

5192
02:55:41,030 --> 02:55:39,040
against choices and suffering pours out

5193
02:55:42,309 --> 02:55:41,040
uh from that dynamics which is also

5194
02:55:43,990 --> 02:55:42,319
natural dynamics

5195
02:55:46,870 --> 02:55:44,000
it's nature fooling itself it's all

5196
02:55:49,590 --> 02:55:46,880
natural so the choice to swim

5197
02:55:50,389 --> 02:55:49,600
with the current rather than against it

5198
02:55:54,630 --> 02:55:50,399
is that choice

5199
02:55:57,030 --> 02:55:54,640
another current in which case

5200
02:55:59,269 --> 02:55:57,040
nature can offer less resistance against

5201
02:56:01,030 --> 02:55:59,279
itself let's put it that way if i

5202
02:56:03,830 --> 02:56:01,040
because you see it's impossible to use

5203
02:56:07,110 --> 02:56:03,840
terms in a completely unambiguous way

5204
02:56:10,389 --> 02:56:07,120
because the terms like i or doing

5205
02:56:11,990 --> 02:56:10,399
or resisting or nature that they have

5206
02:56:13,830 --> 02:56:12,000
already a social meaning

5207
02:56:15,429 --> 02:56:13,840
so if i try to be completely accurate i

5208
02:56:16,710 --> 02:56:15,439
will contradict that social meaning and

5209
02:56:18,790 --> 02:56:16,720
nobody will understand what i'm trying

5210
02:56:21,269 --> 02:56:18,800
to say so i have to be ambiguous

5211
02:56:23,190 --> 02:56:21,279
and seemingly contradictory per force if

5212
02:56:25,910 --> 02:56:23,200
i am to use language

5213
02:56:26,630 --> 02:56:25,920
i don't think bernardo castro exists as

5214
02:56:29,670 --> 02:56:26,640
a true

5215
02:56:32,389 --> 02:56:29,680
separate agency bernardo castro

5216
02:56:33,510 --> 02:56:32,399
is a ripple or a metaphor i prefer a

5217
02:56:36,710 --> 02:56:33,520
whirlpool

5218
02:56:39,349 --> 02:56:36,720
uh in in in the in the ocean of nature

5219
02:56:40,230 --> 02:56:39,359
it's a process it's a doing it's not a

5220
02:56:43,190 --> 02:56:40,240
thing

5221
02:56:45,110 --> 02:56:43,200
it's a cast trooping not a castro yeah

5222
02:56:46,389 --> 02:56:45,120
is that your intellectual mindset

5223
02:56:47,910 --> 02:56:46,399
is that your intellectual mind saying

5224
02:56:48,790 --> 02:56:47,920
that i don't believe bernard or castro

5225
02:56:50,309 --> 02:56:48,800
exist

5226
02:56:52,550 --> 02:56:50,319
that's my that's my intellect saying

5227
02:56:53,830 --> 02:56:52,560
okay but but you cannot feel that in the

5228
02:56:55,830 --> 02:56:53,840
moment but you then you're like

5229
02:56:57,190 --> 02:56:55,840
that's actually correct so let me tell

5230
02:57:00,389 --> 02:56:57,200
you that so

5231
02:57:02,150 --> 02:57:00,399
sorry what's what's then you suffer look

5232
02:57:04,950 --> 02:57:02,160
a conceptual understanding

5233
02:57:06,870 --> 02:57:04,960
is not transformative you need it to

5234
02:57:08,150 --> 02:57:06,880
open the doors to another type of

5235
02:57:09,510 --> 02:57:08,160
understanding because the intellect is

5236
02:57:11,670 --> 02:57:09,520
the bouncer of the heart

5237
02:57:13,030 --> 02:57:11,680
so felt understanding doesn't come

5238
02:57:14,630 --> 02:57:13,040
through if your intellect is saying

5239
02:57:16,070 --> 02:57:14,640
that's not plausible or that is

5240
02:57:18,309 --> 02:57:16,080
impossible in principle

5241
02:57:21,030 --> 02:57:18,319
so you need an intellectual discourse in

5242
02:57:22,870 --> 02:57:21,040
order to allow your intellect to relax

5243
02:57:24,309 --> 02:57:22,880
and give yourself permission to have a

5244
02:57:26,070 --> 02:57:24,319
different kind of understanding but if

5245
02:57:27,190 --> 02:57:26,080
you don't intellectually grant yourself

5246
02:57:29,510 --> 02:57:27,200
permission to do that

5247
02:57:30,309 --> 02:57:29,520
you're screwed so that's that's my fight

5248
02:57:32,950 --> 02:57:30,319
i'm trying to give

5249
02:57:34,389 --> 02:57:32,960
people i'm trying to help people give

5250
02:57:37,190 --> 02:57:34,399
themselves intellectual

5251
02:57:38,630 --> 02:57:37,200
permission to contemplate other things

5252
02:57:41,349 --> 02:57:38,640
than what

5253
02:57:41,910 --> 02:57:41,359
rationalist materialism would would

5254
02:57:45,030 --> 02:57:41,920
accept

5255
02:57:47,349 --> 02:57:45,040
ultimately this

5256
02:57:48,710 --> 02:57:47,359
is direct embodied experience that is

5257
02:57:51,910 --> 02:57:48,720
transformative

5258
02:57:54,230 --> 02:57:51,920
and i'm keeming aware of that um do you

5259
02:57:55,830 --> 02:57:54,240
have any free will

5260
02:57:57,990 --> 02:57:55,840
i don't think bernardo castro really

5261
02:58:00,630 --> 02:57:58,000
exists how can it have free will

5262
02:58:02,309 --> 02:58:00,640
if it's not there if free will is

5263
02:58:02,870 --> 02:58:02,319
bernardo castro can choose against

5264
02:58:04,309 --> 02:58:02,880
nature

5265
02:58:06,710 --> 02:58:04,319
because when another castro is separate

5266
02:58:09,030 --> 02:58:06,720
from nature then of course not

5267
02:58:09,750 --> 02:58:09,040
there isn't the entity there to have

5268
02:58:11,750 --> 02:58:09,760
free will

5269
02:58:13,030 --> 02:58:11,760
so even the question already presupposes

5270
02:58:14,309 --> 02:58:13,040
too much

5271
02:58:16,230 --> 02:58:14,319
so this is the difference between the

5272
02:58:18,389 --> 02:58:16,240
east and the west broadly speaking no

5273
02:58:19,750 --> 02:58:18,399
that the east seems to say well

5274
02:58:21,030 --> 02:58:19,760
suffering comes from your desires so

5275
02:58:22,790 --> 02:58:21,040
here's one solution

5276
02:58:24,710 --> 02:58:22,800
get rid of desire get rid of will but

5277
02:58:26,790 --> 02:58:24,720
then the west poses the other solution

5278
02:58:28,630 --> 02:58:26,800
which is

5279
02:58:31,110 --> 02:58:28,640
find something triumphant that can

5280
02:58:32,790 --> 02:58:31,120
justify the sorrow

5281
02:58:34,469 --> 02:58:32,800
so what do you say to that is that of a

5282
02:58:34,870 --> 02:58:34,479
correct characterization of the east

5283
02:58:36,230 --> 02:58:34,880
versus

5284
02:58:38,309 --> 02:58:36,240
i think it's fair i thought you were

5285
02:58:39,429 --> 02:58:38,319
going to say find something to realize

5286
02:58:42,469 --> 02:58:39,439
your desires on

5287
02:58:43,910 --> 02:58:42,479
that we know is a faulty uh recipe uh

5288
02:58:46,710 --> 02:58:43,920
the richest people in the world

5289
02:58:49,030 --> 02:58:46,720
also you know overdose in medication get

5290
02:58:51,030 --> 02:58:49,040
drunk and commit suicide

5291
02:58:53,110 --> 02:58:51,040
because every time you achieve a desire

5292
02:58:54,710 --> 02:58:53,120
it disappears it's like a ghost

5293
02:58:56,870 --> 02:58:54,720
so you have to go for the next but once

5294
02:58:59,110 --> 02:58:56,880
you play that 10 times you realize that

5295
02:59:00,630 --> 02:58:59,120
it's you're not going to get anywhere

5296
02:59:02,790 --> 02:59:00,640
and then you kill yourself

5297
02:59:03,910 --> 02:59:02,800
but what you said well you are you are

5298
02:59:07,269 --> 02:59:03,920
going to suffer find

5299
02:59:09,269 --> 02:59:07,279
meaning instead that that is the west

5300
02:59:11,510 --> 02:59:09,279
that characterizes the west and i don't

5301
02:59:13,349 --> 02:59:11,520
say that in a judgmental form because

5302
02:59:16,710 --> 02:59:13,359
that's what characterizes me

5303
02:59:17,830 --> 02:59:16,720
i am i mean i have profound admiration

5304
02:59:21,429 --> 02:59:17,840
for the east

5305
02:59:23,190 --> 02:59:21,439
um more than admiration even

5306
02:59:25,429 --> 02:59:23,200
but i have made peace with the fact that

5307
02:59:29,110 --> 02:59:25,439
i am a western

5308
02:59:32,070 --> 02:59:29,120
in mind and i will always be western um

5309
02:59:34,150 --> 02:59:32,080
and and yes as a westerner i find

5310
02:59:36,950 --> 02:59:34,160
consolation in meaning

5311
02:59:37,670 --> 02:59:36,960
knowing that desires cannot be fulfilled

5312
02:59:40,070 --> 02:59:37,680
knowing that

5313
02:59:41,750 --> 02:59:40,080
suffering is integral to life it's the

5314
02:59:43,030 --> 02:59:41,760
thing that keeps you awake with your

5315
02:59:45,590 --> 02:59:43,040
eyes on the ball

5316
02:59:46,870 --> 02:59:45,600
it's the thing that allows us to fulfill

5317
02:59:49,190 --> 02:59:46,880
whatever

5318
02:59:50,550 --> 02:59:49,200
tila's nature might be which might be

5319
02:59:53,429 --> 02:59:50,560
operating through us

5320
02:59:55,190 --> 02:59:53,439
if we never suffer we would just become

5321
02:59:56,950 --> 02:59:55,200
epicureans we will just

5322
02:59:58,950 --> 02:59:56,960
enjoy life and never think about the big

5323
03:00:02,389 --> 02:59:58,960
questions and nature will realize

5324
03:00:03,190 --> 03:00:02,399
no impetus no no go will not follow any

5325
03:00:04,790 --> 03:00:03,200
telos

5326
03:00:06,389 --> 03:00:04,800
if we are like that so suffering is

5327
03:00:09,670 --> 03:00:06,399
necessary it's a

5328
03:00:11,590 --> 03:00:09,680
dreadful but an indispensable tool

5329
03:00:13,750 --> 03:00:11,600
and the way out for me is to find

5330
03:00:18,389 --> 03:00:13,760
meaning and in that i am a westerner and

5331
03:00:21,670 --> 03:00:20,230
how much of a solution as to how you

5332
03:00:24,950 --> 03:00:21,680
should guide your life is to be

5333
03:00:27,110 --> 03:00:24,960
personalized rather than

5334
03:00:28,070 --> 03:00:27,120
adopted broadly from one tradition

5335
03:00:30,230 --> 03:00:28,080
versus the other

5336
03:00:31,910 --> 03:00:30,240
and i'll explain what i mean when you i

5337
03:00:33,030 --> 03:00:31,920
have to scroll down here because that's

5338
03:00:34,550 --> 03:00:33,040
distracting me i have it

5339
03:00:36,309 --> 03:00:34,560
also playing here and the chat is here

5340
03:00:39,670 --> 03:00:36,319
and sometimes it flashes

5341
03:00:43,429 --> 03:00:39,680
and it's i have a distracted

5342
03:00:46,150 --> 03:00:43,439
distracted mind okay so

5343
03:00:47,429 --> 03:00:46,160
i see people who are let's say the new

5344
03:00:48,950 --> 03:00:47,439
age spiritual types but even the

5345
03:00:50,790 --> 03:00:48,960
westerners who

5346
03:00:52,230 --> 03:00:50,800
are adamant about christianity or

5347
03:00:54,630 --> 03:00:52,240
whatever it may be saying no

5348
03:00:56,230 --> 03:00:54,640
this is what you should think my view

5349
03:00:59,349 --> 03:00:56,240
and i'm wondering well

5350
03:01:01,190 --> 03:00:59,359
well is this one pill or is it meant to

5351
03:01:04,230 --> 03:01:01,200
be personalized like a microbiome

5352
03:01:05,510 --> 03:01:04,240
so the west would say to the east what

5353
03:01:07,269 --> 03:01:05,520
you're doing is

5354
03:01:09,590 --> 03:01:07,279
you're not placing enough importance on

5355
03:01:12,550 --> 03:01:09,600
action and you're abnegating your own

5356
03:01:13,269 --> 03:01:12,560
individual importance and the east would

5357
03:01:15,590 --> 03:01:13,279
say to the west

5358
03:01:17,429 --> 03:01:15,600
yeah you're obstinate you're pig-headed

5359
03:01:18,790 --> 03:01:17,439
and you're refractory you're unwilling

5360
03:01:20,950 --> 03:01:18,800
to

5361
03:01:22,790 --> 03:01:20,960
give up your own ego and that's what you

5362
03:01:23,830 --> 03:01:22,800
should do so those are two different

5363
03:01:26,630 --> 03:01:23,840
solutions

5364
03:01:27,670 --> 03:01:26,640
now should we adopt one of them is it a

5365
03:01:29,510 --> 03:01:27,680
mix

5366
03:01:31,510 --> 03:01:29,520
is one ultimately correct now i think

5367
03:01:32,550 --> 03:01:31,520
you're suggesting one the eastern one is

5368
03:01:34,070 --> 03:01:32,560
actually the one that's

5369
03:01:36,070 --> 03:01:34,080
ultimately true in the sense that it

5370
03:01:39,269 --> 03:01:36,080
corresponds to what the facts are

5371
03:01:41,990 --> 03:01:39,279
but as for how we should live our life

5372
03:01:43,670 --> 03:01:42,000
is that a one size fits all or is it a

5373
03:01:45,670 --> 03:01:43,680
mix of both or is there even a third

5374
03:01:47,030 --> 03:01:45,680
solution we should pull from

5375
03:01:48,950 --> 03:01:47,040
i think the answer is always very

5376
03:01:50,950 --> 03:01:48,960
personal i can give you the answer

5377
03:01:52,469 --> 03:01:50,960
that i have for myself my answer my

5378
03:01:54,230 --> 03:01:52,479
truth in this regard and

5379
03:01:55,510 --> 03:01:54,240
i don't i don't think for a moment that

5380
03:01:58,550 --> 03:01:55,520
this particular thing

5381
03:02:01,269 --> 03:01:58,560
is an absolute truth um i

5382
03:02:03,429 --> 03:02:01,279
i think met physically the east has

5383
03:02:05,190 --> 03:02:03,439
gotten it right

5384
03:02:07,830 --> 03:02:05,200
and it keeps popping back up even in the

5385
03:02:10,950 --> 03:02:07,840
west and eventually we have to confront

5386
03:02:14,469 --> 03:02:10,960
the reality of what people in the

5387
03:02:15,030 --> 03:02:14,479
hindus valley centuries before our

5388
03:02:17,010 --> 03:02:15,040
soccer

5389
03:02:18,550 --> 03:02:17,020
centuries before alexander the great

5390
03:02:20,469 --> 03:02:18,560
[Music]

5391
03:02:21,590 --> 03:02:20,479
came into the neighborhood they already

5392
03:02:23,670 --> 03:02:21,600
knew

5393
03:02:25,030 --> 03:02:23,680
so that comes from the hindus valley

5394
03:02:26,070 --> 03:02:25,040
three three and a half thousand years

5395
03:02:30,150 --> 03:02:26,080
ago and i think

5396
03:02:32,790 --> 03:02:30,160
they got it they nailed it okay um

5397
03:02:34,070 --> 03:02:32,800
where i wouldn't go with the east and

5398
03:02:37,190 --> 03:02:34,080
that's my personal answer

5399
03:02:40,790 --> 03:02:37,200
where i am a western to the bone

5400
03:02:43,429 --> 03:02:40,800
is that although i am convinced that

5401
03:02:44,150 --> 03:02:43,439
personal agency our personal sense of

5402
03:02:47,190 --> 03:02:44,160
self

5403
03:02:49,429 --> 03:02:47,200
is an illusion i do think it's an

5404
03:02:52,389 --> 03:02:49,439
illusion with a role to play

5405
03:02:53,429 --> 03:02:52,399
nature has done this all right so how

5406
03:02:56,389 --> 03:02:53,439
did this come about

5407
03:02:58,230 --> 03:02:56,399
is there why is there an instinctive why

5408
03:03:01,670 --> 03:02:58,240
i'm sure it's not a premeditated

5409
03:03:03,990 --> 03:03:01,680
plan like the christian god um

5410
03:03:05,670 --> 03:03:04,000
but we've come to this and everything in

5411
03:03:07,830 --> 03:03:05,680
nature seems to be pushing

5412
03:03:08,950 --> 03:03:07,840
in that direction you know evolution by

5413
03:03:10,630 --> 03:03:08,960
natural selection

5414
03:03:12,790 --> 03:03:10,640
that has to be an environment conducive

5415
03:03:14,830 --> 03:03:12,800
to that the whole of nature seems to be

5416
03:03:17,510 --> 03:03:14,840
pushing that direction of

5417
03:03:19,429 --> 03:03:17,520
self-reflective seemingly personal

5418
03:03:21,590 --> 03:03:19,439
conscious agents

5419
03:03:23,030 --> 03:03:21,600
i wouldn't dismiss that as some kind of

5420
03:03:25,349 --> 03:03:23,040
cosmic error

5421
03:03:26,550 --> 03:03:25,359
that we need to grow out of i think we

5422
03:03:29,030 --> 03:03:26,560
need to understand

5423
03:03:29,670 --> 03:03:29,040
what is probably ultimately truth but

5424
03:03:32,630 --> 03:03:29,680
with that

5425
03:03:35,269 --> 03:03:32,640
the truth but without dismissing the

5426
03:03:37,190 --> 03:03:35,279
kind of experience that is made possible

5427
03:03:40,150 --> 03:03:37,200
through the illusion of individual

5428
03:03:43,750 --> 03:03:40,160
agency look it's through the association

5429
03:03:46,230 --> 03:03:43,760
that we can contemplate the universe

5430
03:03:46,790 --> 03:03:46,240
from a side that's not available to god

5431
03:03:48,070 --> 03:03:46,800
if i'm

5432
03:03:50,389 --> 03:03:48,080
allowed to use this word in a

5433
03:03:52,389 --> 03:03:50,399
metaphorical sense it is by being

5434
03:03:53,670 --> 03:03:52,399
dissociated that we can look at god from

5435
03:03:55,990 --> 03:03:53,680
the other side

5436
03:03:57,590 --> 03:03:56,000
in a self-reflective manner because

5437
03:03:59,750 --> 03:03:57,600
self-reflection is the product of

5438
03:04:01,910 --> 03:03:59,760
evolution by natural selection

5439
03:04:04,070 --> 03:04:01,920
we've paid a very dear price over three

5440
03:04:04,950 --> 03:04:04,080
and a half billion years of evolution on

5441
03:04:07,830 --> 03:04:04,960
this planet

5442
03:04:08,469 --> 03:04:07,840
to develop the ability to say i am a

5443
03:04:11,910 --> 03:04:08,479
thinking

5444
03:04:13,349 --> 03:04:11,920
entity nature has invested a lot in this

5445
03:04:15,910 --> 03:04:13,359
bloody affair

5446
03:04:16,630 --> 03:04:15,920
illusory as it may be a lot has gone

5447
03:04:18,870 --> 03:04:16,640
into this

5448
03:04:19,990 --> 03:04:18,880
so i am not dismissive of it i am with

5449
03:04:23,590 --> 03:04:20,000
the young on this

5450
03:04:26,630 --> 03:04:23,600
i am not for dismantling the images

5451
03:04:27,830 --> 03:04:26,640
i am not for meditating ourselves out of

5452
03:04:31,030 --> 03:04:27,840
existence

5453
03:04:32,870 --> 03:04:31,040
and becoming into some

5454
03:04:35,510 --> 03:04:32,880
mental space in which nothing really

5455
03:04:36,309 --> 03:04:35,520
happens becoming completely disengaged

5456
03:04:38,550 --> 03:04:36,319
from the world

5457
03:04:40,230 --> 03:04:38,560
from the others i'm not for that i think

5458
03:04:41,990 --> 03:04:40,240
this is all an illusion

5459
03:04:43,990 --> 03:04:42,000
but i think it's an illusion worthwhile

5460
03:04:46,070 --> 03:04:44,000
to play along with

5461
03:04:47,670 --> 03:04:46,080
but just keeping in mind at all times

5462
03:04:49,510 --> 03:04:47,680
that it is an illusion don't get

5463
03:04:51,030 --> 03:04:49,520
completely taken in

5464
03:04:52,950 --> 03:04:51,040
when you're playing the game but by all

5465
03:04:54,150 --> 03:04:52,960
means do play the game nature has

5466
03:04:57,670 --> 03:04:54,160
invested a bloody

5467
03:05:01,110 --> 03:04:57,680
lot in this we have to have

5468
03:05:04,230 --> 03:05:01,120
faith faith

5469
03:05:07,349 --> 03:05:04,240
that there is a point

5470
03:05:09,269 --> 03:05:07,359
because we have been born we are in this

5471
03:05:10,950 --> 03:05:09,279
extraordinarily strange condition of

5472
03:05:12,710 --> 03:05:10,960
being alive

5473
03:05:14,230 --> 03:05:12,720
if there is no point to it and then soon

5474
03:05:15,750 --> 03:05:14,240
enough you'll be dead then you

5475
03:05:17,910 --> 03:05:15,760
have nothing to lose anyway you never

5476
03:05:20,150 --> 03:05:17,920
had anything to lose from the get go

5477
03:05:22,070 --> 03:05:20,160
but in in the off chance that there is

5478
03:05:22,309 --> 03:05:22,080
an instinctive point to this that this

5479
03:05:25,349 --> 03:05:22,319
is

5480
03:05:27,590 --> 03:05:25,359
pushing towards something some desperate

5481
03:05:29,349 --> 03:05:27,600
need instinctual need for for

5482
03:05:31,590 --> 03:05:29,359
self-knowledge operating through

5483
03:05:33,670 --> 03:05:31,600
us into which nature is investing

5484
03:05:35,750 --> 03:05:33,680
unfathomable amounts of suffering

5485
03:05:36,790 --> 03:05:35,760
if there is enough chance that this may

5486
03:05:40,710 --> 03:05:36,800
be the case

5487
03:05:44,150 --> 03:05:40,720
i think it's our moral duty

5488
03:05:46,469 --> 03:05:44,160
to play the game not get taken in by it

5489
03:05:48,150 --> 03:05:46,479
but to play the game and explore the

5490
03:05:50,630 --> 03:05:48,160
world from this perspective

5491
03:05:52,070 --> 03:05:50,640
experience your suffering contemplate it

5492
03:05:54,389 --> 03:05:52,080
ponder about it

5493
03:05:56,150 --> 03:05:54,399
no we are in this situation not forever

5494
03:05:58,550 --> 03:05:56,160
soon enough we will not be

5495
03:05:59,990 --> 03:05:58,560
so take something out of it in the off

5496
03:06:01,750 --> 03:06:00,000
chance that there is something to be

5497
03:06:02,469 --> 03:06:01,760
taken out of it so in that sense i'm not

5498
03:06:04,950 --> 03:06:02,479
eastern

5499
03:06:07,429 --> 03:06:04,960
at all i think they got it right

5500
03:06:10,550 --> 03:06:07,439
metaphysically

5501
03:06:11,750 --> 03:06:10,560
but their moral truth is not my moral

5502
03:06:14,389 --> 03:06:11,760
truth

5503
03:06:15,670 --> 03:06:14,399
um i am for playing the game and you see

5504
03:06:17,349 --> 03:06:15,680
that in what i'm doing

5505
03:06:19,030 --> 03:06:17,359
look at me i'm playing the game am i

5506
03:06:20,469 --> 03:06:19,040
choosing to do this no i'm just not

5507
03:06:22,790 --> 03:06:20,479
resisting it

5508
03:06:24,469 --> 03:06:22,800
i'm giving i'm letting whatever wants to

5509
03:06:27,990 --> 03:06:24,479
come through the world through me

5510
03:06:30,070 --> 03:06:28,000
to come unopposed and it took me over

5511
03:06:31,590 --> 03:06:30,080
10 years of holding this philosophical

5512
03:06:33,510 --> 03:06:31,600
position i hold today

5513
03:06:35,510 --> 03:06:33,520
for this to become something that really

5514
03:06:36,870 --> 03:06:35,520
comes out of my bones as opposed to an

5515
03:06:40,230 --> 03:06:36,880
intellectual conceptual

5516
03:06:43,910 --> 03:06:40,240
thought so today and i i

5517
03:06:45,429 --> 03:06:43,920
can't tell you how much relief i feel in

5518
03:06:47,269 --> 03:06:45,439
being able to say this

5519
03:06:48,469 --> 03:06:47,279
with the hand of my heart and in all

5520
03:06:50,870 --> 03:06:48,479
honesty

5521
03:06:54,070 --> 03:06:50,880
today not last year not the year before

5522
03:06:57,190 --> 03:06:54,080
that not the 10 years before that

5523
03:07:01,190 --> 03:06:57,200
i live my philosophy

5524
03:07:03,110 --> 03:07:01,200
i embodied and i feel an amount of peace

5525
03:07:06,469 --> 03:07:03,120
today that one year ago

5526
03:07:07,590 --> 03:07:06,479
would have been unthinkable and what

5527
03:07:10,630 --> 03:07:07,600
brought me to this was

5528
03:07:14,389 --> 03:07:12,230
two years ago i almost killed myself

5529
03:07:16,630 --> 03:07:14,399
twice because of a health condition that

5530
03:07:18,710 --> 03:07:16,640
is incurable but will never kill me just

5531
03:07:21,990 --> 03:07:18,720
make me suffer beyond belief

5532
03:07:24,950 --> 03:07:22,000
i have a particularly hard form of

5533
03:07:26,550 --> 03:07:24,960
tinnitus people say ringing in the ears

5534
03:07:27,750 --> 03:07:26,560
but in my case it sounds like a

5535
03:07:29,670 --> 03:07:27,760
dentist's drill

5536
03:07:31,190 --> 03:07:29,680
about one meter distance one on each

5537
03:07:33,510 --> 03:07:31,200
side

5538
03:07:35,269 --> 03:07:33,520
and it's constant right now day and

5539
03:07:36,790 --> 03:07:35,279
night it's the last thing and right now

5540
03:07:38,950 --> 03:07:36,800
of course especially when i put

5541
03:07:40,309 --> 03:07:38,960
a headset on and i block environment

5542
03:07:44,710 --> 03:07:40,319
sounds then i lose

5543
03:07:46,630 --> 03:07:44,720
auditive depth and then i hear it

5544
03:07:48,070 --> 03:07:46,640
constantly it's the last thing i hear

5545
03:07:49,990 --> 03:07:48,080
when i fall asleep it's the first thing

5546
03:07:52,870 --> 03:07:50,000
i experience when i wake up

5547
03:07:54,469 --> 03:07:52,880
and when this really got worse i have it

5548
03:07:56,389 --> 03:07:54,479
i have had it for eight years or nine

5549
03:07:58,309 --> 03:07:56,399
but when it really got worse beginning

5550
03:08:01,349 --> 03:07:58,319
of 2019

5551
03:08:04,550 --> 03:08:01,359
um two eyes for half an hour

5552
03:08:06,309 --> 03:08:04,560
i the the the idea of killing myself was

5553
03:08:07,670 --> 03:08:06,319
not abstract at all it was something

5554
03:08:13,510 --> 03:08:07,680
very

5555
03:08:21,670 --> 03:08:13,520
that

5556
03:08:23,510 --> 03:08:21,680
explain

5557
03:08:25,830 --> 03:08:23,520
this suffering has brought me to the

5558
03:08:28,550 --> 03:08:25,840
state of peace i am in now

5559
03:08:30,950 --> 03:08:28,560
so for the first time my philosophy it

5560
03:08:33,190 --> 03:08:30,960
has always been

5561
03:08:34,309 --> 03:08:33,200
not abstract for me i have always been a

5562
03:08:36,070 --> 03:08:34,319
philosopher in the

5563
03:08:37,910 --> 03:08:36,080
classical sense in the sense that

5564
03:08:40,950 --> 03:08:37,920
philosophy is not a job for me

5565
03:08:42,630 --> 03:08:40,960
it's my guidance it's my guide to life

5566
03:08:45,590 --> 03:08:42,640
yeah so it has always been like that to

5567
03:08:48,469 --> 03:08:45,600
me but embodying my philosophy

5568
03:08:50,950 --> 03:08:48,479
is very recent and it it's with an

5569
03:08:53,269 --> 03:08:50,960
unending amount of joy that i'm

5570
03:08:55,190 --> 03:08:53,279
able to say that to you with a hand in

5571
03:08:59,990 --> 03:08:55,200
my heart in all honesty

5572
03:09:03,269 --> 03:09:00,000
i have surrendered uh my personal self

5573
03:09:05,830 --> 03:09:03,279
and life has become fantastic

5574
03:09:07,590 --> 03:09:05,840
meaningful pleasant of course it will

5575
03:09:09,590 --> 03:09:07,600
not last forever at some point i'll get

5576
03:09:10,630 --> 03:09:09,600
sick i will lose someone i love as it

5577
03:09:12,469 --> 03:09:10,640
has happened before

5578
03:09:14,710 --> 03:09:12,479
and it will be a whole bloody nightmare

5579
03:09:15,670 --> 03:09:14,720
again but look i am in peace right now

5580
03:09:17,429 --> 03:09:15,680
i'll take it

5581
03:09:20,389 --> 03:09:17,439
i don't know how long it will last but

5582
03:09:22,550 --> 03:09:20,399
i'll take it with gratitude

5583
03:09:24,630 --> 03:09:22,560
and it just makes my philosophy come to

5584
03:09:27,269 --> 03:09:24,640
life in me

5585
03:09:28,309 --> 03:09:27,279
uh and increases my commitment to it my

5586
03:09:30,870 --> 03:09:28,319
commitment my

5587
03:09:33,110 --> 03:09:30,880
sub course commitment to it not the

5588
03:09:35,110 --> 03:09:33,120
commitment commitment of bernardo castro

5589
03:09:36,550 --> 03:09:35,120
bernardo castro never wanted to do this

5590
03:09:38,229 --> 03:09:36,560
never wanted to write books

5591
03:09:40,550 --> 03:09:38,239
never wanted to leave the corporate

5592
03:09:42,309 --> 03:09:40,560
world never wanted to become a

5593
03:09:44,790 --> 03:09:42,319
more or less known philosopher bernardo

5594
03:09:47,030 --> 03:09:44,800
castro wanted to be a business executive

5595
03:09:48,309 --> 03:09:47,040
and i almost actually got to that and

5596
03:09:51,349 --> 03:09:48,319
then gave it up

5597
03:09:53,990 --> 03:09:51,359
sold at ibm yeah bernardo kassoup had

5598
03:09:56,469 --> 03:09:54,000
other plans about the ideal partner

5599
03:09:57,349 --> 03:09:56,479
my partner today my girlfriend today is

5600
03:10:00,389 --> 03:09:57,359
the choice of

5601
03:10:01,590 --> 03:10:00,399
the unconscious it's the true choice

5602
03:10:03,670 --> 03:10:01,600
it's the person that

5603
03:10:05,750 --> 03:10:03,680
needs to be in my life it's the person

5604
03:10:08,229 --> 03:10:05,760
nature wanted me to be with

5605
03:10:08,950 --> 03:10:08,239
in the sense that she and i are nature

5606
03:10:10,870 --> 03:10:08,960
um

5607
03:10:13,750 --> 03:10:10,880
and it was very different before it's

5608
03:10:16,550 --> 03:10:13,760
totally different way of relating

5609
03:10:17,429 --> 03:10:16,560
to each other to yourself to the world

5610
03:10:19,670 --> 03:10:17,439
um

5611
03:10:20,469 --> 03:10:19,680
very peaceful and everything happens

5612
03:10:24,150 --> 03:10:20,479
naturally

5613
03:10:25,830 --> 03:10:24,160
effortlessly giving an interview to you

5614
03:10:27,830 --> 03:10:25,840
i've been speaking for three hours and

5615
03:10:29,670 --> 03:10:27,840
15 minutes more actually because i

5616
03:10:31,590 --> 03:10:29,680
started recording

5617
03:10:34,070 --> 03:10:31,600
later i'm cognizant of your time and i

5618
03:10:36,309 --> 03:10:34,080
apologize it is floating

5619
03:10:37,510 --> 03:10:36,319
it's flowing effortlessly but that's

5620
03:10:38,469 --> 03:10:37,520
what i'm trying to say it flows

5621
03:10:42,790 --> 03:10:38,479
effortlessly

5622
03:10:44,550 --> 03:10:42,800
would confess that

5623
03:10:46,469 --> 03:10:44,560
giving birth to a book is like giving

5624
03:10:47,750 --> 03:10:46,479
birth it's painful it wakes me up at

5625
03:10:49,030 --> 03:10:47,760
three in the morning and puts me in

5626
03:10:50,469 --> 03:10:49,040
front of this computer at three in the

5627
03:10:52,550 --> 03:10:50,479
morning even even if i have to wake up

5628
03:10:55,590 --> 03:10:52,560
at seven go to work the next day

5629
03:10:56,790 --> 03:10:55,600
um every book

5630
03:10:59,990 --> 03:10:56,800
it's like a costume so why do you

5631
03:11:02,389 --> 03:11:00,000
responsibility because

5632
03:11:03,670 --> 03:11:02,399
it's like a ball of hot iron that comes

5633
03:11:05,190 --> 03:11:03,680
up your esophagus

5634
03:11:08,389 --> 03:11:05,200
and you need to spit it out and the only

5635
03:11:11,429 --> 03:11:08,399
way to spit it out is to finish it

5636
03:11:13,510 --> 03:11:11,439
and and now now it's easier because

5637
03:11:14,550 --> 03:11:13,520
i don't resist it if that's what's going

5638
03:11:16,950 --> 03:11:14,560
to come tomorrow

5639
03:11:18,389 --> 03:11:16,960
then that's what's going to be and so

5640
03:11:21,750 --> 03:11:18,399
let it be

5641
03:11:23,510 --> 03:11:21,760
so there is freedom in what um

5642
03:11:25,349 --> 03:11:23,520
philosophers of ode would say the

5643
03:11:27,830 --> 03:11:25,359
slavery to the diamond

5644
03:11:29,830 --> 03:11:27,840
and the diamond is that superior force

5645
03:11:32,790 --> 03:11:29,840
that forces you to do

5646
03:11:33,830 --> 03:11:32,800
things in life as a philosopher oh damon

5647
03:11:37,910 --> 03:11:33,840
okay

5648
03:11:39,910 --> 03:11:37,920
aristotle had a depends on the spelling

5649
03:11:42,469 --> 03:11:39,920
aristotle had a daemon who told him what

5650
03:11:43,990 --> 03:11:42,479
not to do there are other flaws

5651
03:11:45,510 --> 03:11:44,000
socrates sorry and there are other

5652
03:11:49,190 --> 03:11:45,520
philosophers that have a demon

5653
03:11:52,790 --> 03:11:49,200
that tell them what to do um

5654
03:11:55,510 --> 03:11:52,800
so uh surrendering to slavery

5655
03:11:56,630 --> 03:11:55,520
towards my demon has been the ultimate

5656
03:12:00,309 --> 03:11:56,640
freedom

5657
03:12:02,790 --> 03:12:00,319
over

5658
03:12:04,630 --> 03:12:02,800
stealing the god from the fire stealing

5659
03:12:06,550 --> 03:12:04,640
the fire from the gods

5660
03:12:08,070 --> 03:12:06,560
and making the universe what it wants to

5661
03:12:09,910 --> 03:12:08,080
be that's impossible

5662
03:12:11,429 --> 03:12:09,920
because the ego doesn't even exist it's

5663
03:12:14,950 --> 03:12:11,439
a psychological

5664
03:12:18,070 --> 03:12:14,960
phenomenon in the

5665
03:12:18,630 --> 03:12:18,080
in the in the pejorative sense of the

5666
03:12:22,229 --> 03:12:18,640
meaning

5667
03:12:24,710 --> 03:12:22,239
something your mind is making up

5668
03:12:25,269 --> 03:12:24,720
that's what it is so how can it control

5669
03:12:27,590 --> 03:12:25,279
the world

5670
03:12:29,110 --> 03:12:27,600
it's not really there to begin with how

5671
03:12:32,630 --> 03:12:29,120
can something that doesn't exist

5672
03:12:34,469 --> 03:12:32,640
control what does exist so freedom for

5673
03:12:36,389 --> 03:12:34,479
me has not been achieved through the

5674
03:12:38,150 --> 03:12:36,399
mastery of control although

5675
03:12:39,670 --> 03:12:38,160
i thought i had mastered control by the

5676
03:12:41,590 --> 03:12:39,680
time i was 34

5677
03:12:43,510 --> 03:12:41,600
i was the youngest as i think i was the

5678
03:12:45,269 --> 03:12:43,520
youngest executive in my company

5679
03:12:47,030 --> 03:12:45,279
which is one of the top 50 companies in

5680
03:12:48,550 --> 03:12:47,040
europe it's not it was not as

5681
03:12:50,870 --> 03:12:48,560
it is not a small company

5682
03:12:54,309 --> 03:12:50,880
congratulations i'm not going to name

5683
03:12:55,910 --> 03:12:54,319
the company but a very very very large

5684
03:12:57,429 --> 03:12:55,920
and important company if that company

5685
03:12:59,349 --> 03:12:57,439
ceased to exist tomorrow

5686
03:13:01,269 --> 03:12:59,359
you would have no new phones computers

5687
03:13:04,150 --> 03:13:01,279
or ipads for at least five years

5688
03:13:07,269 --> 03:13:06,150
so i had that illusion when i was

5689
03:13:09,510 --> 03:13:07,279
thirty-four

5690
03:13:10,550 --> 03:13:09,520
now i control life now i have money i

5691
03:13:12,950 --> 03:13:10,560
have a beautiful house i have a

5692
03:13:14,870 --> 03:13:12,960
beautiful wife a great job i have power

5693
03:13:16,469 --> 03:13:14,880
you had a wife before you were married i

5694
03:13:18,550 --> 03:13:16,479
had a wife before i had

5695
03:13:20,790 --> 03:13:18,560
my current partner yeah and my my

5696
03:13:22,309 --> 03:13:20,800
ex-wife is still a very close friend

5697
03:13:24,950 --> 03:13:22,319
uh we are not enemies at all on the

5698
03:13:28,229 --> 03:13:24,960
contrary but we're not married anymore

5699
03:13:29,750 --> 03:13:28,239
um and and then it's like instantly

5700
03:13:31,190 --> 03:13:29,760
after i got that promotion

5701
03:13:33,030 --> 03:13:31,200
and bought the house in which i lived

5702
03:13:36,150 --> 03:13:33,040
today which for dutch standard this is

5703
03:13:38,469 --> 03:13:36,160
wonderful large expensive house

5704
03:13:40,229 --> 03:13:38,479
and that i thought okay uh now i arrived

5705
03:13:41,670 --> 03:13:40,239
now now i have control i have the house

5706
03:13:44,070 --> 03:13:41,680
i have the wife i have the money i have

5707
03:13:46,309 --> 03:13:44,080
the position the power i have everything

5708
03:13:47,590 --> 03:13:46,319
and then it's amazing how life

5709
03:13:51,750 --> 03:13:47,600
immediately

5710
03:13:55,429 --> 03:13:51,760
cuts your short right um

5711
03:13:58,550 --> 03:13:55,439
through illness um i thought

5712
03:14:02,389 --> 03:13:58,560
well my wife then and i uh

5713
03:14:05,030 --> 03:14:02,399
discovered a a mass in her breast

5714
03:14:06,630 --> 03:14:05,040
and it took two weeks for the doctors to

5715
03:14:08,309 --> 03:14:06,640
confirm that it was benign it was

5716
03:14:09,110 --> 03:14:08,319
nothing to worry about but during those

5717
03:14:10,950 --> 03:14:09,120
two weeks

5718
03:14:12,150 --> 03:14:10,960
we lived with the reality that it was

5719
03:14:13,830 --> 03:14:12,160
probably cancer

5720
03:14:15,830 --> 03:14:13,840
and that was nature telling me you think

5721
03:14:17,590 --> 03:14:15,840
you're in control just because you have

5722
03:14:19,590 --> 03:14:17,600
a high position a beautiful house and

5723
03:14:21,670 --> 03:14:19,600
money in the bank let me show you what

5724
03:14:22,309 --> 03:14:21,680
control is i would take from you what

5725
03:14:25,190 --> 03:14:22,319
you care

5726
03:14:26,309 --> 03:14:25,200
most about or at least i will have you

5727
03:14:27,830 --> 03:14:26,319
think

5728
03:14:29,110 --> 03:14:27,840
that i would take from you what you care

5729
03:14:30,790 --> 03:14:29,120
most about and at the end of the day it

5730
03:14:31,429 --> 03:14:30,800
was not cancer she's alive and healthy

5731
03:14:34,229 --> 03:14:31,439
today

5732
03:14:34,550 --> 03:14:34,239
but the message the message was not was

5733
03:14:38,389 --> 03:14:34,560
not

5734
03:14:41,670 --> 03:14:38,399
lost on me we are never

5735
03:14:44,790 --> 03:14:41,680
ever in control we don't even exist

5736
03:14:45,349 --> 03:14:44,800
let alone be in control you are never in

5737
03:14:48,150 --> 03:14:45,359
control

5738
03:14:50,150 --> 03:14:48,160
you are like a mayfly you are an

5739
03:14:52,630 --> 03:14:50,160
ephemeral little dwing of

5740
03:14:53,269 --> 03:14:52,640
nature that will stop being done in no

5741
03:14:55,990 --> 03:14:53,279
time

5742
03:14:57,110 --> 03:14:56,000
before you even think boom it's over

5743
03:15:00,389 --> 03:14:57,120
thank you

5744
03:15:02,309 --> 03:15:00,399
and you are you have absolutely no

5745
03:15:04,630 --> 03:15:02,319
control buddy and if you think you have

5746
03:15:05,670 --> 03:15:04,640
you're in for a lot of disappointment

5747
03:15:08,870 --> 03:15:05,680
and suffering

5748
03:15:11,910 --> 03:15:08,880
and the freedom i found was in hey

5749
03:15:12,870 --> 03:15:11,920
embracing this bernardo doesn't even

5750
03:15:15,190 --> 03:15:12,880
exist

5751
03:15:16,950 --> 03:15:15,200
of course he's not in control i am a

5752
03:15:19,269 --> 03:15:16,960
doing i am a process

5753
03:15:20,150 --> 03:15:19,279
something wants to manifest through this

5754
03:15:24,630 --> 03:15:20,160
doing

5755
03:15:27,750 --> 03:15:24,640
it i'll let it through

5756
03:15:30,070 --> 03:15:27,760
and and i and look if it works great

5757
03:15:31,269 --> 03:15:30,080
if it doesn't work it's not my problem

5758
03:15:34,630 --> 03:15:31,279
either

5759
03:15:35,590 --> 03:15:34,640
because the you know the same argument

5760
03:15:38,550 --> 03:15:35,600
that tells you

5761
03:15:39,269 --> 03:15:38,560
you're not in control also tells you you

5762
03:15:41,510 --> 03:15:39,279
do not

5763
03:15:43,670 --> 03:15:41,520
really have ultimate responsibility

5764
03:15:46,309 --> 03:15:43,680
that's not a license for immoral

5765
03:15:46,950 --> 03:15:46,319
or dysfunctional behavior that's not a

5766
03:15:48,790 --> 03:15:46,960
license

5767
03:15:50,550 --> 03:15:48,800
for dysfunctional behavior or a criminal

5768
03:15:52,870 --> 03:15:50,560
behavior let me repeat it

5769
03:15:53,590 --> 03:15:52,880
it's not a license for that it just

5770
03:15:55,590 --> 03:15:53,600
tells you

5771
03:15:57,830 --> 03:15:55,600
if you regret anything you're deluding

5772
03:15:58,710 --> 03:15:57,840
yourself because you didn't choose what

5773
03:16:03,030 --> 03:15:58,720
you regret

5774
03:16:05,510 --> 03:16:03,040
either something worked through you

5775
03:16:06,389 --> 03:16:05,520
something needed to happen through your

5776
03:16:09,349 --> 03:16:06,399
actions

5777
03:16:10,469 --> 03:16:09,359
so you know the illusion of control is

5778
03:16:12,790 --> 03:16:10,479
as much an illusion

5779
03:16:13,510 --> 03:16:12,800
and for the same reasons of the illusion

5780
03:16:16,309 --> 03:16:13,520
of

5781
03:16:18,309 --> 03:16:16,319
regret so yeah i don't understand that

5782
03:16:20,389 --> 03:16:18,319
last point about regret

5783
03:16:21,990 --> 03:16:20,399
you can only regret things if you think

5784
03:16:24,309 --> 03:16:22,000
you really had a choice and you made the

5785
03:16:26,469 --> 03:16:24,319
wrong one

5786
03:16:28,790 --> 03:16:26,479
right now if you understand that there

5787
03:16:30,389 --> 03:16:28,800
was a natural process unfolding

5788
03:16:32,309 --> 03:16:30,399
over which the thing you consider to be

5789
03:16:33,910 --> 03:16:32,319
yourself was just as a small part and

5790
03:16:34,389 --> 03:16:33,920
that the boundaries between that and the

5791
03:16:36,469 --> 03:16:34,399
rest

5792
03:16:38,150 --> 03:16:36,479
it's just a narrative in your head yeah

5793
03:16:39,990 --> 03:16:38,160
and a mental configuration that is

5794
03:16:43,269 --> 03:16:40,000
conducive to that narrative

5795
03:16:46,469 --> 03:16:43,279
then no regret what is there to regret

5796
03:16:48,229 --> 03:16:46,479
it's not your show you know what i mean

5797
03:16:49,510 --> 03:16:48,239
this is where i'm thinking about what's

5798
03:16:51,510 --> 03:16:49,520
the confluence between

5799
03:16:53,590 --> 03:16:51,520
the judeo-christian ethic and then the

5800
03:16:54,630 --> 03:16:53,600
east and i see overlap and then i see

5801
03:16:57,750 --> 03:16:54,640
disparity

5802
03:16:59,750 --> 03:16:57,760
so one is the surrendering there's that

5803
03:17:01,510 --> 03:16:59,760
seems to be common to all religions

5804
03:17:03,190 --> 03:17:01,520
now in christianity it's like surrender

5805
03:17:05,910 --> 03:17:03,200
to the truth and that's something

5806
03:17:06,870 --> 03:17:05,920
jesus i try yeah but jesus is synonymous

5807
03:17:09,510 --> 03:17:06,880
with the truth and love

5808
03:17:11,429 --> 03:17:09,520
yeah exactly jesus is the word the lord

5809
03:17:13,590 --> 03:17:11,439
so surrender to jesus seems like

5810
03:17:14,950 --> 03:17:13,600
something very concrete and personal

5811
03:17:16,630 --> 03:17:14,960
it's saying the same thing that the

5812
03:17:18,150 --> 03:17:16,640
eastern guys are saying all there is is

5813
03:17:20,469 --> 03:17:18,160
the void you don't even exist it's

5814
03:17:21,349 --> 03:17:20,479
the same bloody evening but even the

5815
03:17:22,710 --> 03:17:21,359
rationalists too

5816
03:17:24,710 --> 03:17:22,720
where the rationalists talk about well

5817
03:17:26,710 --> 03:17:24,720
all i follow is logic well the root word

5818
03:17:28,469 --> 03:17:26,720
of logic is logos and you hear what they

5819
03:17:29,830 --> 03:17:28,479
say about logic it's almost

5820
03:17:31,590 --> 03:17:29,840
equivalent to what christians have to

5821
03:17:32,309 --> 03:17:31,600
say about jesus that is it's it's all

5822
03:17:34,229 --> 03:17:32,319
perva oh

5823
03:17:37,190 --> 03:17:34,239
god it's all pervading you k it's a

5824
03:17:39,030 --> 03:17:37,200
natural order you cannot go against it

5825
03:17:40,870 --> 03:17:39,040
okay well you can go against it actually

5826
03:17:41,750 --> 03:17:40,880
but you you're it's deleterious if you

5827
03:17:42,950 --> 03:17:41,760
go against it just like some

5828
03:17:44,550 --> 03:17:42,960
rationalists say well if that's

5829
03:17:46,790 --> 03:17:44,560
illogical dismiss that

5830
03:17:47,830 --> 03:17:46,800
okay so then the surrendering to the

5831
03:17:49,990 --> 03:17:47,840
truth okay that's

5832
03:17:52,229 --> 03:17:50,000
that's something i try i try to live my

5833
03:17:55,269 --> 03:17:52,239
life by i do

5834
03:17:57,670 --> 03:17:55,279
i do like that i do

5835
03:17:58,550 --> 03:17:57,680
like i i hope that i do live that live

5836
03:17:59,990 --> 03:17:58,560
by that

5837
03:18:02,389 --> 03:18:00,000
and and then the truth has to be

5838
03:18:03,670 --> 03:18:02,399
selected by something

5839
03:18:05,269 --> 03:18:03,680
what i mean by that is that there's an

5840
03:18:06,550 --> 03:18:05,279
infinite amount of truths to choose from

5841
03:18:07,429 --> 03:18:06,560
so you have to have some selection

5842
03:18:10,469 --> 03:18:07,439
mechanism

5843
03:18:13,349 --> 03:18:10,479
be well i

5844
03:18:13,910 --> 03:18:13,359
conceptualize it as love so of all the

5845
03:18:15,990 --> 03:18:13,920
truths

5846
03:18:17,110 --> 03:18:16,000
so here's one way of talking about it

5847
03:18:19,830 --> 03:18:17,120
someone close to me said

5848
03:18:20,950 --> 03:18:19,840
i wanted to tell my partner she's as

5849
03:18:22,630 --> 03:18:20,960
cold as a rock

5850
03:18:23,990 --> 03:18:22,640
something like that and then i was

5851
03:18:25,510 --> 03:18:24,000
thinking well

5852
03:18:27,429 --> 03:18:25,520
you shouldn't say that and then i think

5853
03:18:29,110 --> 03:18:27,439
i said that then he said but it's true

5854
03:18:31,830 --> 03:18:29,120
and it's like well it is true because

5855
03:18:33,590 --> 03:18:31,840
she is cold she is as cold as a rock

5856
03:18:35,590 --> 03:18:33,600
but it's not loving and there's plenty

5857
03:18:36,469 --> 03:18:35,600
you could say so why would you select

5858
03:18:37,990 --> 03:18:36,479
that one

5859
03:18:40,070 --> 03:18:38,000
okay so there's that you surrender to

5860
03:18:42,870 --> 03:18:40,080
the truth i like that and then

5861
03:18:44,389 --> 03:18:42,880
in christianity there is an emphasis on

5862
03:18:46,389 --> 03:18:44,399
on slavery in the sense that

5863
03:18:47,830 --> 03:18:46,399
be a slave to a higher master and then

5864
03:18:49,429 --> 03:18:47,840
that can obviously get

5865
03:18:51,590 --> 03:18:49,439
distorted and being used for actual

5866
03:18:52,229 --> 03:18:51,600
stuff you nailed it right you nailed it

5867
03:18:55,110 --> 03:18:52,239
you hit it

5868
03:18:55,910 --> 03:18:55,120
in the head in your first words thanks

5869
03:18:57,830 --> 03:18:55,920
thanks thanks

5870
03:18:59,190 --> 03:18:57,840
okay but then here's the difference you

5871
03:19:00,550 --> 03:18:59,200
said regret

5872
03:19:02,469 --> 03:19:00,560
and regret is something that we did not

5873
03:19:03,830 --> 03:19:02,479
choose but in the christian ethic i

5874
03:19:06,229 --> 03:19:03,840
would

5875
03:19:07,750 --> 03:19:06,239
imagine for your choices yeah yes yes

5876
03:19:09,830 --> 03:19:07,760
yes you choose correctly

5877
03:19:11,269 --> 03:19:09,840
and you can regret and that's fine don't

5878
03:19:13,190 --> 03:19:11,279
make that same mistake again

5879
03:19:15,670 --> 03:19:13,200
and as long as you don't make it again

5880
03:19:16,950 --> 03:19:15,680
jesus forgot as long as you want to

5881
03:19:18,870 --> 03:19:16,960
live your life by not making that

5882
03:19:19,830 --> 03:19:18,880
mistake again that's forgiveness you

5883
03:19:21,429 --> 03:19:19,840
don't need to regret it

5884
03:19:23,030 --> 03:19:21,439
if you regret it well who are you to

5885
03:19:24,229 --> 03:19:23,040
even regret it jesus forgives you you

5886
03:19:25,830 --> 03:19:24,239
know better than jesus

5887
03:19:28,070 --> 03:19:25,840
so in some way you can let go of regret

5888
03:19:28,309 --> 03:19:28,080
like that so it's complimentary but then

5889
03:19:38,790 --> 03:19:28,319
i

5890
03:19:40,870 --> 03:19:38,800
have

5891
03:19:43,030 --> 03:19:40,880
moved a significant number of people in

5892
03:19:46,790 --> 03:19:43,040
our history

5893
03:19:48,710 --> 03:19:46,800
they have the power they have

5894
03:19:50,950 --> 03:19:48,720
the power to compel people to move in a

5895
03:19:51,510 --> 03:19:50,960
certain way they have that power because

5896
03:19:54,790 --> 03:19:51,520
they are

5897
03:19:57,910 --> 03:19:54,800
touching on something true although

5898
03:20:00,150 --> 03:19:57,920
amenable to wild misinterpretation

5899
03:20:01,830 --> 03:20:00,160
but at the source it's pure at the

5900
03:20:04,710 --> 03:20:01,840
source it is the truth

5901
03:20:06,389 --> 03:20:04,720
and what you just said in christianity

5902
03:20:07,030 --> 03:20:06,399
it's all about surrendering to a higher

5903
03:20:09,750 --> 03:20:07,040
power

5904
03:20:11,110 --> 03:20:09,760
and that's exactly and i can recognize

5905
03:20:13,670 --> 03:20:11,120
what happened in my life

5906
03:20:14,389 --> 03:20:13,680
over the past year as an instance of

5907
03:20:17,510 --> 03:20:14,399
that

5908
03:20:19,429 --> 03:20:17,520
because by i by admitting and facing the

5909
03:20:21,030 --> 03:20:19,439
reality that pernamcas took not only is

5910
03:20:23,910 --> 03:20:21,040
not in control has never been

5911
03:20:24,790 --> 03:20:23,920
but is not really even there that was my

5912
03:20:27,750 --> 03:20:24,800
freedom

5913
03:20:27,990 --> 03:20:27,760
it's this recognition that is freeing

5914
03:20:30,630 --> 03:20:28,000
not

5915
03:20:31,590 --> 03:20:30,640
the freedom of control but the freedom

5916
03:20:33,349 --> 03:20:31,600
of surrender

5917
03:20:34,870 --> 03:20:33,359
surrendering to a higher power and that

5918
03:20:37,110 --> 03:20:34,880
higher power is what i really

5919
03:20:38,150 --> 03:20:37,120
am it's nature as it wants to manifest

5920
03:20:39,910 --> 03:20:38,160
through me

5921
03:20:41,670 --> 03:20:39,920
so i i recognize the christian

5922
03:20:43,510 --> 03:20:41,680
surrendering to yourself

5923
03:20:45,429 --> 03:20:43,520
you're certainly what you actually are

5924
03:20:47,510 --> 03:20:45,439
truest you're natural

5925
03:20:49,510 --> 03:20:47,520
as opposed to your adaptive self your

5926
03:20:51,030 --> 03:20:49,520
your social socially adaptive self

5927
03:20:52,389 --> 03:20:51,040
because it sounds selfish

5928
03:20:54,070 --> 03:20:52,399
it sounds narcissistic like i'm

5929
03:20:55,910 --> 03:20:54,080
surrendering to myself i'll do what i

5930
03:20:58,550 --> 03:20:55,920
will but side

5931
03:20:59,429 --> 03:20:58,560
yeah it's a precise opposite of that so

5932
03:21:01,110 --> 03:20:59,439
why do you think

5933
03:21:02,630 --> 03:21:01,120
sorry to interrupt but this is like and

5934
03:21:05,190 --> 03:21:02,640
i know you got to go man like

5935
03:21:06,070 --> 03:21:05,200
i've kept you on for way too long and

5936
03:21:07,349 --> 03:21:06,080
i'm

5937
03:21:09,349 --> 03:21:07,359
like i should get going at some point

5938
03:21:11,510 --> 03:21:09,359
too but why do you think

5939
03:21:14,550 --> 03:21:11,520
it is that the east managed to get the

5940
03:21:16,710 --> 03:21:14,560
metaphysic correct

5941
03:21:17,910 --> 03:21:16,720
know their coach by chance yeah i know

5942
03:21:19,590 --> 03:21:17,920
but what is it about

5943
03:21:21,110 --> 03:21:19,600
this that's the biggest question right

5944
03:21:23,590 --> 03:21:21,120
this is a dangerous path

5945
03:21:25,590 --> 03:21:23,600
because it starts getting into and do

5946
03:21:26,870 --> 03:21:25,600
different so-called races have different

5947
03:21:28,550 --> 03:21:26,880
potentials

5948
03:21:30,630 --> 03:21:28,560
and i don't even acknowledge

5949
03:21:33,349 --> 03:21:30,640
scientifically the existence of a race

5950
03:21:34,630 --> 03:21:33,359
so i'm not going to say that there's

5951
03:21:36,710 --> 03:21:34,640
something special

5952
03:21:38,070 --> 03:21:36,720
about the peoples of the subcontinent i

5953
03:21:41,429 --> 03:21:38,080
don't think that would be

5954
03:21:43,910 --> 03:21:41,439
a statement i would espouse

5955
03:21:45,110 --> 03:21:43,920
but i do recognize that for whatever

5956
03:21:47,670 --> 03:21:45,120
reason

5957
03:21:48,550 --> 03:21:47,680
it has happened there and the true

5958
03:21:52,150 --> 03:21:48,560
understanding of

5959
03:21:55,349 --> 03:21:52,160
it still seems to occur more often

5960
03:21:57,830 --> 03:21:55,359
there to this darn day

5961
03:22:00,550 --> 03:21:57,840
now i would not offer you an explanation

5962
03:22:01,269 --> 03:22:00,560
along genetic lines of superiority or

5963
03:22:02,870 --> 03:22:01,279
anything

5964
03:22:04,550 --> 03:22:02,880
because i don't believe in this kind of

5965
03:22:08,550 --> 03:22:04,560
explanations but

5966
03:22:11,830 --> 03:22:08,560
yeah it's a confluence in nature

5967
03:22:12,950 --> 03:22:11,840
that happened to happen there and and

5968
03:22:14,389 --> 03:22:12,960
still happening there and might think

5969
03:22:15,349 --> 03:22:14,399
well it's a long time for it to be just

5970
03:22:16,870 --> 03:22:15,359
a confluence

5971
03:22:18,870 --> 03:22:16,880
it's not it's three and a half thousand

5972
03:22:20,469 --> 03:22:18,880
years it's the blink of an eye it's less

5973
03:22:23,269 --> 03:22:20,479
than the blink of an eye

5974
03:22:24,070 --> 03:22:23,279
it's like nothing you know and it may be

5975
03:22:26,150 --> 03:22:24,080
different

5976
03:22:27,110 --> 03:22:26,160
next time around i don't know we will

5977
03:22:29,030 --> 03:22:27,120
not be

5978
03:22:30,790 --> 03:22:29,040
around in this form and to see that in

5979
03:22:34,309 --> 03:22:30,800
this form um

5980
03:22:37,190 --> 03:22:34,319
so i i do not know why there

5981
03:22:37,750 --> 03:22:37,200
you know that that period of time is

5982
03:22:40,870 --> 03:22:37,760
called the

5983
03:22:43,110 --> 03:22:40,880
the axial age um

5984
03:22:45,750 --> 03:22:43,120
and it's a mystery why then and why in

5985
03:22:48,550 --> 03:22:45,760
many parts of the world but particularly

5986
03:22:50,070 --> 03:22:48,560
stronger than anywhere else and arguably

5987
03:22:51,190 --> 03:22:50,080
truer than anywhere else that this

5988
03:22:54,630 --> 03:22:51,200
happened in the

5989
03:22:57,910 --> 03:22:54,640
hindus valley and the only explanation i

5990
03:23:00,630 --> 03:22:57,920
i can conceive is it's another culture

5991
03:23:03,429 --> 03:23:00,640
and which is true it's another culture

5992
03:23:06,630 --> 03:23:03,439
you know where the subcontinent was when

5993
03:23:09,670 --> 03:23:06,640
europe was in the dark ages

5994
03:23:14,070 --> 03:23:09,680
it's not a very flattering comparison

5995
03:23:16,950 --> 03:23:14,080
for europe um you're talking about minus

5996
03:23:19,190 --> 03:23:16,960
3000 bc now i'm talking about already

5997
03:23:22,309 --> 03:23:19,200
the dark ages in europe you know

5998
03:23:24,070 --> 03:23:22,319
the period between 400 and 1400 when

5999
03:23:26,630 --> 03:23:24,080
intellectual development stopped

6000
03:23:28,150 --> 03:23:26,640
in europe social development stopped in

6001
03:23:28,950 --> 03:23:28,160
europe was in the dark ages in the

6002
03:23:32,229 --> 03:23:28,960
subcontinent

6003
03:23:33,910 --> 03:23:32,239
it was not dark in in the muslim world

6004
03:23:37,110 --> 03:23:33,920
it was not dark either

6005
03:23:39,830 --> 03:23:37,120
actually it was a sort of renaissance

6006
03:23:40,710 --> 03:23:39,840
of arts crafts and science in the muslin

6007
03:23:44,070 --> 03:23:40,720
world

6008
03:23:47,190 --> 03:23:44,080
um so you know the the the

6009
03:23:49,830 --> 03:23:47,200
torch of wisdom

6010
03:23:50,950 --> 03:23:49,840
and intellectual development is hand

6011
03:23:54,150 --> 03:23:50,960
over

6012
03:23:57,910 --> 03:23:54,160
across the world in different epochs

6013
03:23:58,870 --> 03:23:57,920
i do acknowledge that metaphysical

6014
03:24:01,670 --> 03:23:58,880
understanding

6015
03:24:03,190 --> 03:24:01,680
seems to particularly correlate with the

6016
03:24:05,030 --> 03:24:03,200
subcontinent you know for whatever

6017
03:24:07,510 --> 03:24:05,040
reason and i i don't know

6018
03:24:08,229 --> 03:24:07,520
i don't know i i would tell you this if

6019
03:24:09,750 --> 03:24:08,239
i were

6020
03:24:11,269 --> 03:24:09,760
someone from the subcontinent you're

6021
03:24:12,070 --> 03:24:11,279
from the sub-continent aren't you your

6022
03:24:14,950 --> 03:24:12,080
surname

6023
03:24:16,229 --> 03:24:14,960
my my background is west indian so i'm

6024
03:24:18,150 --> 03:24:16,239
from trinidad and then i

6025
03:24:19,830 --> 03:24:18,160
am an immigrant to toronto so i came

6026
03:24:20,550 --> 03:24:19,840
here when i was yeah okay so you have

6027
03:24:26,710 --> 03:24:20,560
that background

6028
03:24:29,190 --> 03:24:26,720
how will i get across by saying that if

6029
03:24:30,630 --> 03:24:29,200
i had that background i would be proud

6030
03:24:32,229 --> 03:24:30,640
oh that's nice i'll put it that way but

6031
03:24:35,030 --> 03:24:32,239
that doesn't mean that

6032
03:24:35,670 --> 03:24:35,040
that i intellectually think that the

6033
03:24:37,349 --> 03:24:35,680
races

6034
03:24:39,590 --> 03:24:37,359
are superior i don't i think this is

6035
03:24:41,110 --> 03:24:39,600
nonsense yeah i wasn't gonna go there

6036
03:24:42,950 --> 03:24:41,120
well what i was wondering is so one

6037
03:24:44,870 --> 03:24:42,960
explanation is by chance and the reasons

6038
03:24:46,469 --> 03:24:44,880
by chance is

6039
03:24:47,910 --> 03:24:46,479
we can say that it's been around for

6040
03:24:49,269 --> 03:24:47,920
3000 years so it can't be by chance

6041
03:24:50,710 --> 03:24:49,279
because that's too long but then at the

6042
03:24:51,910 --> 03:24:50,720
same time time is relative like it's a

6043
03:24:55,030 --> 03:24:51,920
blink in the eye who knows

6044
03:24:55,830 --> 03:24:55,040
another role of the dice maybe african

6045
03:24:57,429 --> 03:24:55,840
culture would have come up with

6046
03:24:59,190 --> 03:24:57,439
christianity and

6047
03:25:01,510 --> 03:24:59,200
vice versa and so on blah blah blah okay

6048
03:25:02,950 --> 03:25:01,520
cool it's not only that it that it arose

6049
03:25:04,630 --> 03:25:02,960
there i mean it popped elsewhere it

6050
03:25:07,110 --> 03:25:04,640
popped in western culture as well

6051
03:25:08,469 --> 03:25:07,120
parmenides arguably was an idealist if

6052
03:25:11,750 --> 03:25:08,479
you interpret him correctly

6053
03:25:13,910 --> 03:25:11,760
as uh um is that a pre-socratic

6054
03:25:15,190 --> 03:25:13,920
yeah yeah okay yeah i don't know um so

6055
03:25:17,670 --> 03:25:15,200
it sounds like basically

6056
03:25:19,510 --> 03:25:17,680
it popped elsewhere um so it's not

6057
03:25:20,550 --> 03:25:19,520
exclusive to the subcontinent what makes

6058
03:25:23,750 --> 03:25:20,560
the subcontinent

6059
03:25:26,710 --> 03:25:23,760
special is that it was conducive to its

6060
03:25:28,229 --> 03:25:26,720
spread and adoption

6061
03:25:29,910 --> 03:25:28,239
instead of popping the minds of one

6062
03:25:33,269 --> 03:25:29,920
another and then disappearing

6063
03:25:34,630 --> 03:25:33,279
like in the west there it popped and

6064
03:25:36,950 --> 03:25:34,640
took hold

6065
03:25:37,670 --> 03:25:36,960
so there was an easier recognition of

6066
03:25:40,309 --> 03:25:37,680
that and

6067
03:25:42,630 --> 03:25:40,319
yeah was that cultural i don't know it

6068
03:25:44,870 --> 03:25:42,640
predates assault so you can't even make

6069
03:25:46,870 --> 03:25:44,880
historical arguments about the alignment

6070
03:25:48,070 --> 03:25:46,880
of philosophy and state power because it

6071
03:25:51,190 --> 03:25:48,080
precedes that

6072
03:25:52,150 --> 03:25:51,200
so i don't know i don't know okay i know

6073
03:25:54,070 --> 03:25:52,160
you got to get going

6074
03:25:55,349 --> 03:25:54,080
so how about i just read to you a few

6075
03:25:56,309 --> 03:25:55,359
questions and then you answer them

6076
03:25:57,269 --> 03:25:56,319
quickly

6077
03:25:59,750 --> 03:25:57,279
because there are some audience

6078
03:26:02,309 --> 03:25:59,760
questions so one

6079
03:26:04,070 --> 03:26:02,319
you mentioned that materialism if we

6080
03:26:06,389 --> 03:26:04,080
guide ourselves by that we're doomed

6081
03:26:07,349 --> 03:26:06,399
i'm curious is there no case to be made

6082
03:26:10,309 --> 03:26:07,359
for ethics

6083
03:26:12,229 --> 03:26:10,319
under materialism like some would say

6084
03:26:15,590 --> 03:26:12,239
like marxists

6085
03:26:18,389 --> 03:26:15,600
i think i think morals and ethics are

6086
03:26:19,349 --> 03:26:18,399
are practical useful constructs and

6087
03:26:22,309 --> 03:26:19,359
there is just

6088
03:26:24,389 --> 03:26:22,319
as good a case for a functional moral

6089
03:26:25,349 --> 03:26:24,399
anathex under materialism as there is

6090
03:26:27,670 --> 03:26:25,359
under any other

6091
03:26:29,269 --> 03:26:27,680
metaphysics so yes i don't think an

6092
03:26:30,790 --> 03:26:29,279
argument against materialism is that

6093
03:26:32,790 --> 03:26:30,800
it's not conducive to ethics i don't

6094
03:26:34,229 --> 03:26:32,800
think that is true i think we can live

6095
03:26:36,469 --> 03:26:34,239
ethically and morally

6096
03:26:38,790 --> 03:26:36,479
also under materialism i think

6097
03:26:41,349 --> 03:26:38,800
materialism is killing for

6098
03:26:42,950 --> 03:26:41,359
meaning for our sense of meaning and for

6099
03:26:44,389 --> 03:26:42,960
our understanding of our place in nature

6100
03:26:46,150 --> 03:26:44,399
materialism is killing for that it's a

6101
03:26:49,349 --> 03:26:46,160
nihilistic philosophy

6102
03:26:51,750 --> 03:26:49,359
but it's not a philosophy that makes

6103
03:26:53,030 --> 03:26:51,760
functional morals and ethics impossible

6104
03:26:54,790 --> 03:26:53,040
i don't think that is the case and i

6105
03:26:56,309 --> 03:26:54,800
think it's a fallacious argument against

6106
03:26:57,269 --> 03:26:56,319
materialism

6107
03:27:01,269 --> 03:26:57,279
in other words i don't think a

6108
03:27:03,510 --> 03:27:01,279
materialist is necessarily a bad person

6109
03:27:04,870 --> 03:27:03,520
what is the weakest point of your theory

6110
03:27:06,710 --> 03:27:04,880
slash worldview so that is

6111
03:27:07,990 --> 03:27:06,720
if someone was to put a crack in it

6112
03:27:10,710 --> 03:27:08,000
where would they most likely

6113
03:27:11,030 --> 03:27:10,720
to be successful putting a crack in it's

6114
03:27:13,590 --> 03:27:11,040
uh

6115
03:27:16,150 --> 03:27:13,600
an explicit conceptual account of

6116
03:27:18,070 --> 03:27:16,160
exactly what dissociation is

6117
03:27:19,990 --> 03:27:18,080
we know it exists because of empirical

6118
03:27:21,670 --> 03:27:20,000
reasons it is happening we have

6119
03:27:23,510 --> 03:27:21,680
neural imaging studies of person with

6120
03:27:25,190 --> 03:27:23,520
dissociate people with dissociation

6121
03:27:26,550 --> 03:27:25,200
we know the dreams they report that they

6122
03:27:28,309 --> 03:27:26,560
can experience the dream from different

6123
03:27:31,030 --> 03:27:28,319
point of views depending on the altar

6124
03:27:33,990 --> 03:27:31,040
so we know that the process exists that

6125
03:27:37,110 --> 03:27:34,000
is necessary to explain

6126
03:27:37,910 --> 03:27:37,120
nature so it is there we know

6127
03:27:42,630 --> 03:27:37,920
empirically

6128
03:27:43,990 --> 03:27:42,640
but we do not have a explicit completely

6129
03:27:46,309 --> 03:27:44,000
internally consistent

6130
03:27:47,510 --> 03:27:46,319
conceptual account of it that's the

6131
03:27:49,510 --> 03:27:47,520
weakest point

6132
03:27:51,429 --> 03:27:49,520
i would say that's not a reason to

6133
03:27:53,349 --> 03:27:51,439
reject idealism because whether we have

6134
03:27:54,950 --> 03:27:53,359
a conceptual account of it or not we

6135
03:27:57,510 --> 03:27:54,960
know the process exists

6136
03:27:58,229 --> 03:27:57,520
so this is an epistemic question with

6137
03:27:59,830 --> 03:27:58,239
very

6138
03:28:01,429 --> 03:27:59,840
little force you know whether we can

6139
03:28:03,349 --> 03:28:01,439
whether we can account for it for it or

6140
03:28:03,990 --> 03:28:03,359
not we know it exists accountability is

6141
03:28:05,670 --> 03:28:04,000
an issue

6142
03:28:07,510 --> 03:28:05,680
when you're postulating things that you

6143
03:28:08,870 --> 03:28:07,520
don't know whether they exist or not

6144
03:28:10,630 --> 03:28:08,880
then you have to describe them

6145
03:28:12,309 --> 03:28:10,640
explicitly and completely

6146
03:28:13,750 --> 03:28:12,319
for us check the plausibility of it but

6147
03:28:16,870 --> 03:28:13,760
when nature is already showing us

6148
03:28:17,510 --> 03:28:16,880
this happens that's all we need but i

6149
03:28:20,469 --> 03:28:17,520
would admit

6150
03:28:21,510 --> 03:28:20,479
that we lack a complete and internally

6151
03:28:24,229 --> 03:28:21,520
consistent

6152
03:28:27,190 --> 03:28:24,239
conceptual account of exactly what the

6153
03:28:30,469 --> 03:28:28,950
what makes something living versus not

6154
03:28:32,950 --> 03:28:30,479
conscious versus not so

6155
03:28:33,510 --> 03:28:32,960
is a brick alive and how do we have a

6156
03:28:34,790 --> 03:28:33,520
way of

6157
03:28:37,190 --> 03:28:34,800
drawing that boundary is there something

6158
03:28:38,469 --> 03:28:37,200
special about biological life

6159
03:28:39,750 --> 03:28:38,479
why what are the conditions you just

6160
03:28:41,110 --> 03:28:39,760
mentioned this right like what are the

6161
03:28:42,229 --> 03:28:41,120
conditions for the sophisticated

6162
03:28:44,150 --> 03:28:42,239
dissociation let's say

6163
03:28:45,670 --> 03:28:44,160
i think all biology is the image of a

6164
03:28:49,110 --> 03:28:45,680
dissociative process in

6165
03:28:51,510 --> 03:28:49,120
the natural mind so to say um or

6166
03:28:52,309 --> 03:28:51,520
universal consciousness if i want if i

6167
03:28:55,830 --> 03:28:52,319
use some

6168
03:28:58,389 --> 03:28:55,840
terms co-opted by the new age

6169
03:29:00,710 --> 03:28:58,399
i think all matter is the image of inner

6170
03:29:03,429 --> 03:29:00,720
mental processes the question is

6171
03:29:04,150 --> 03:29:03,439
what counts as a dissociated alter and

6172
03:29:07,190 --> 03:29:04,160
what is just

6173
03:29:07,590 --> 03:29:07,200
part of the rest of mind at large as a

6174
03:29:09,349 --> 03:29:07,600
whole

6175
03:29:10,870 --> 03:29:09,359
because mind at large technically is

6176
03:29:12,550 --> 03:29:10,880
also an altar

6177
03:29:14,550 --> 03:29:12,560
not in other words after you eliminate

6178
03:29:15,110 --> 03:29:14,560
every living being what remains is

6179
03:29:17,269 --> 03:29:15,120
itself an

6180
03:29:18,710 --> 03:29:17,279
altar because it's dissociated from the

6181
03:29:20,790 --> 03:29:18,720
living beings

6182
03:29:21,910 --> 03:29:20,800
so if there is a dissociative boundary

6183
03:29:24,469 --> 03:29:21,920
there is an outer

6184
03:29:25,910 --> 03:29:24,479
and any boundary divides the spacing two

6185
03:29:26,309 --> 03:29:25,920
so when you have a boundary you have at

6186
03:29:29,590 --> 03:29:26,319
least

6187
03:29:31,030 --> 03:29:29,600
two altars already so at the birth of

6188
03:29:32,950 --> 03:29:31,040
the first living being

6189
03:29:34,229 --> 03:29:32,960
in the history of the universe there

6190
03:29:36,710 --> 03:29:34,239
were two outers

6191
03:29:38,309 --> 03:29:36,720
the living being and all the rest which

6192
03:29:39,910 --> 03:29:38,319
was dissociated from the living being

6193
03:29:41,750 --> 03:29:39,920
the association is two ways

6194
03:29:43,030 --> 03:29:41,760
to stop you i'm trying to understand

6195
03:29:43,510 --> 03:29:43,040
you're making a distinction between

6196
03:29:46,870 --> 03:29:43,520
living

6197
03:29:48,389 --> 03:29:46,880
and mind so can you experience without

6198
03:29:52,630 --> 03:29:48,399
living

6199
03:29:54,309 --> 03:29:52,640
yes i think the rest of the universe the

6200
03:29:56,550 --> 03:29:54,319
inanimate universe everything that

6201
03:29:57,670 --> 03:29:56,560
remains after you remove every living

6202
03:30:00,469 --> 03:29:57,680
being

6203
03:30:02,710 --> 03:30:00,479
everything that remains is itself a

6204
03:30:04,229 --> 03:30:02,720
conscious entity

6205
03:30:05,750 --> 03:30:04,239
okay bernardo sorry i'm trying to

6206
03:30:06,630 --> 03:30:05,760
understand this forgive me if i just

6207
03:30:08,550 --> 03:30:06,640
keep interrupting

6208
03:30:10,870 --> 03:30:08,560
okay are you making a connection between

6209
03:30:12,070 --> 03:30:10,880
living beings and self-conscious beings

6210
03:30:15,190 --> 03:30:12,080
or those two separate

6211
03:30:17,590 --> 03:30:15,200
yes i think only the altars

6212
03:30:18,229 --> 03:30:17,600
that correspond to living beings have

6213
03:30:21,269 --> 03:30:18,239
developed

6214
03:30:24,150 --> 03:30:21,279
self-consciousness because you need

6215
03:30:24,630 --> 03:30:24,160
evolution by natural selection in in in

6216
03:30:27,510 --> 03:30:24,640
the

6217
03:30:28,950 --> 03:30:27,520
framework of a planetary ecosystem for

6218
03:30:31,190 --> 03:30:28,960
this to evolve

6219
03:30:32,550 --> 03:30:31,200
so i don't think mind at large in other

6220
03:30:33,429 --> 03:30:32,560
words the parts of universal

6221
03:30:35,670 --> 03:30:33,439
consciousness that

6222
03:30:37,429 --> 03:30:35,680
are dissociated from all living beings

6223
03:30:38,870 --> 03:30:37,439
what remains of the universe after you

6224
03:30:40,469 --> 03:30:38,880
account for all living beings

6225
03:30:41,910 --> 03:30:40,479
i don't think mind at large is

6226
03:30:43,590 --> 03:30:41,920
self-conscious

6227
03:30:45,269 --> 03:30:43,600
because it didn't undergo the pressures

6228
03:30:47,110 --> 03:30:45,279
of natural selection in a planetary

6229
03:30:49,990 --> 03:30:47,120
ecosystem it had no reason

6230
03:30:50,630 --> 03:30:50,000
to need to evolve that higher order

6231
03:30:54,630 --> 03:30:50,640
mental

6232
03:30:55,590 --> 03:30:54,640
ability um but i think it is conscious

6233
03:30:57,990 --> 03:30:55,600
because all there is

6234
03:30:58,950 --> 03:30:58,000
is consciousness and you may call it god

6235
03:31:02,229 --> 03:30:58,960
if you want

6236
03:31:03,110 --> 03:31:02,239
it's certainly omnipresent and probably

6237
03:31:06,309 --> 03:31:03,120
omniscient

6238
03:31:08,790 --> 03:31:06,319
even though not not self-reflective

6239
03:31:10,550 --> 03:31:08,800
and also omnipotent although not in a

6240
03:31:12,309 --> 03:31:10,560
premeditated way

6241
03:31:14,309 --> 03:31:12,319
so i'm fine if you want to call that god

6242
03:31:16,630 --> 03:31:14,319
with the caveat that that's what i mean

6243
03:31:19,750 --> 03:31:16,640
by the word god and not anything else

6244
03:31:21,349 --> 03:31:19,760
um and it is conscious too so and what

6245
03:31:23,590 --> 03:31:21,359
does it look like from our perspective

6246
03:31:27,510 --> 03:31:23,600
it looks like the inanimate universe

6247
03:31:29,670 --> 03:31:27,520
stars galaxies quasars black holes moons

6248
03:31:30,710 --> 03:31:29,680
asteroids everything that is known

6249
03:31:33,750 --> 03:31:30,720
living around us

6250
03:31:34,229 --> 03:31:33,760
is the body of mind at large in other

6251
03:31:36,389 --> 03:31:34,239
words

6252
03:31:38,150 --> 03:31:36,399
it's what the innermantation of mind at

6253
03:31:38,710 --> 03:31:38,160
large looks like when observed from

6254
03:31:42,469 --> 03:31:38,720
across

6255
03:31:44,790 --> 03:31:42,479
our dissociative boundary it's what the

6256
03:31:46,070 --> 03:31:44,800
mental inner life of mind at large looks

6257
03:31:49,510 --> 03:31:46,080
like to us

6258
03:31:52,870 --> 03:31:49,520
in the dashboard of our sensory organs

6259
03:31:54,790 --> 03:31:52,880
so all matter is just the image of

6260
03:31:56,550 --> 03:31:54,800
conscious in their life whether it

6261
03:31:57,190 --> 03:31:56,560
corresponds to a living being or not and

6262
03:31:59,590 --> 03:31:57,200
here i'm

6263
03:32:00,550 --> 03:31:59,600
restricting the term life to dissociated

6264
03:32:02,309 --> 03:32:00,560
alters

6265
03:32:03,750 --> 03:32:02,319
and the inanimate universe in that sense

6266
03:32:04,630 --> 03:32:03,760
is not alive because it's not an

6267
03:32:07,190 --> 03:32:04,640
organism

6268
03:32:08,950 --> 03:32:07,200
but it has mental inner life conscious

6269
03:32:10,389 --> 03:32:08,960
in their life

6270
03:32:12,870 --> 03:32:10,399
and now i'm using the word life in a

6271
03:32:14,790 --> 03:32:12,880
broader sense it is conscious but it's

6272
03:32:16,950 --> 03:32:14,800
not a living organism in a restricted

6273
03:32:19,110 --> 03:32:16,960
the restrictive definition of a living

6274
03:32:20,830 --> 03:32:19,120
organism as something that metabolizes

6275
03:32:23,030 --> 03:32:20,840
the inanimate universe does not

6276
03:32:25,429 --> 03:32:23,040
metabolize but i do think it has

6277
03:32:27,110 --> 03:32:25,439
conscious in their life

6278
03:32:29,349 --> 03:32:27,120
and that's the matter of the inanimate

6279
03:32:30,469 --> 03:32:29,359
universe is what that conscious in their

6280
03:32:33,349 --> 03:32:30,479
life looks like

6281
03:32:35,030 --> 03:32:33,359
in the dashboard of the dials that we

6282
03:32:36,309 --> 03:32:35,040
use to collect information from what's

6283
03:32:37,990 --> 03:32:36,319
outside our altar

6284
03:32:40,710 --> 03:32:38,000
on the other side of our dissociative

6285
03:32:43,190 --> 03:32:40,720
boundary so

6286
03:32:45,030 --> 03:32:43,200
everything betrays the presence of

6287
03:32:46,070 --> 03:32:45,040
consciousness literally everything the

6288
03:32:48,349 --> 03:32:46,080
question is

6289
03:32:50,790 --> 03:32:48,359
is what betrays the presence of

6290
03:32:52,790 --> 03:32:50,800
dissociated conscious processes

6291
03:32:54,469 --> 03:32:52,800
then i would say only living beings do

6292
03:32:56,950 --> 03:32:54,479
that this bottle

6293
03:32:58,710 --> 03:32:56,960
does not have a conscious inner life in

6294
03:33:00,710 --> 03:32:58,720
and of itself the way you have a

6295
03:33:03,190 --> 03:33:00,720
conscious inner life in and of itself

6296
03:33:05,429 --> 03:33:03,200
i think this bottle is part of the broad

6297
03:33:07,590 --> 03:33:05,439
image we call the inanimate universe

6298
03:33:09,349 --> 03:33:07,600
and the inanimate universe is conscious

6299
03:33:12,070 --> 03:33:09,359
as a whole

6300
03:33:12,870 --> 03:33:12,080
in other words there is no bottle it's a

6301
03:33:15,190 --> 03:33:12,880
linguistic

6302
03:33:17,590 --> 03:33:15,200
differentiation we make the only

6303
03:33:20,630 --> 03:33:17,600
ontologically distinct

6304
03:33:22,469 --> 03:33:20,640
things are living beings why because i

6305
03:33:24,469 --> 03:33:22,479
fear if i pinch my skin and i don't feel

6306
03:33:26,469 --> 03:33:24,479
it if i pinch my screen

6307
03:33:28,229 --> 03:33:26,479
so there is an ontological boundary

6308
03:33:29,910 --> 03:33:28,239
defining my outer and that is

6309
03:33:32,229 --> 03:33:29,920
the boundaries of what i can directly

6310
03:33:33,990 --> 03:33:32,239
feel i don't feel photons hitting

6311
03:33:36,309 --> 03:33:34,000
against the wall but i feel photons

6312
03:33:37,429 --> 03:33:36,319
hitting against my retina so there is an

6313
03:33:39,269 --> 03:33:37,439
ontake

6314
03:33:40,790 --> 03:33:39,279
way to say this is a this is something

6315
03:33:43,349 --> 03:33:40,800
separate but

6316
03:33:44,950 --> 03:33:43,359
we do not have any reason to pronounce

6317
03:33:47,429 --> 03:33:44,960
that the car is separate

6318
03:33:48,790 --> 03:33:47,439
that the road is separate that the empty

6319
03:33:50,790 --> 03:33:48,800
bottle of water is separate

6320
03:33:53,030 --> 03:33:50,800
these are linguistic distinctions we

6321
03:33:55,190 --> 03:33:53,040
call it nominal separations

6322
03:33:56,630 --> 03:33:55,200
they are merely nominal we we apply

6323
03:33:58,150 --> 03:33:56,640
these for convenience so we can

6324
03:34:00,229 --> 03:33:58,160
communicate more easily if i want to buy

6325
03:34:02,389 --> 03:34:00,239
a car but

6326
03:34:03,990 --> 03:34:02,399
the car is continuous with the rest of

6327
03:34:05,510 --> 03:34:04,000
the inanimate universe

6328
03:34:07,190 --> 03:34:05,520
if you take away the road and the

6329
03:34:07,590 --> 03:34:07,200
gravity that pulls the car against the

6330
03:34:08,950 --> 03:34:07,600
road

6331
03:34:11,030 --> 03:34:08,960
the car doesn't go anywhere it doesn't

6332
03:34:12,710 --> 03:34:11,040
move if you take away the wear

6333
03:34:14,950 --> 03:34:12,720
the air that allows for combustion in

6334
03:34:17,510 --> 03:34:14,960
the engine it doesn't even fire

6335
03:34:19,590 --> 03:34:17,520
so there is no proper grounds for

6336
03:34:20,630 --> 03:34:19,600
distinguishing between inanimate objects

6337
03:34:22,950 --> 03:34:20,640
so if you ask me

6338
03:34:24,070 --> 03:34:22,960
does the bottle have conscious in their

6339
03:34:26,309 --> 03:34:24,080
life of its own

6340
03:34:27,590 --> 03:34:26,319
i would say no because the bottle isn't

6341
03:34:29,750 --> 03:34:27,600
even a bottle

6342
03:34:31,590 --> 03:34:29,760
it's a nominal distinction we make there

6343
03:34:34,790 --> 03:34:31,600
is only the inanimate universe

6344
03:34:36,309 --> 03:34:34,800
as a whole and that yes that has a

6345
03:34:39,349 --> 03:34:36,319
conscious inner life of its own

6346
03:34:41,510 --> 03:34:39,359
dissociated from us

6347
03:34:42,950 --> 03:34:41,520
what type of logic do you subscribe to

6348
03:34:47,750 --> 03:34:42,960
classical intuitionist

6349
03:34:50,870 --> 03:34:47,760
so i'm an i'm an intuitionist i think uh

6350
03:34:54,389 --> 03:34:50,880
the the law of excluded middle although

6351
03:34:56,870 --> 03:34:54,399
seems to be very intuitive um

6352
03:34:58,790 --> 03:34:56,880
it is not well formed i think it doesn't

6353
03:35:00,710 --> 03:34:58,800
survive proper scrutiny

6354
03:35:02,710 --> 03:35:00,720
i think existence can only be

6355
03:35:03,590 --> 03:35:02,720
demonstrated by the production of an

6356
03:35:06,309 --> 03:35:03,600
example

6357
03:35:07,910 --> 03:35:06,319
of that which you want to say exists as

6358
03:35:10,150 --> 03:35:07,920
opposed to

6359
03:35:13,349 --> 03:35:10,160
abstractly proving the impossibility of

6360
03:35:16,710 --> 03:35:15,429
if you use the words intuitionist then

6361
03:35:18,550 --> 03:35:16,720
you know what i'm talking about

6362
03:35:20,469 --> 03:35:18,560
maybe for the benefit of the audience

6363
03:35:22,870 --> 03:35:20,479
the law of excluded middle says

6364
03:35:23,750 --> 03:35:22,880
that either something is true or false

6365
03:35:25,269 --> 03:35:23,760
it cannot be both

6366
03:35:26,870 --> 03:35:25,279
either something exists or it doesn't

6367
03:35:29,670 --> 03:35:26,880
exist it cannot do both

6368
03:35:30,710 --> 03:35:29,680
so by proving that something cannot be

6369
03:35:32,790 --> 03:35:30,720
false

6370
03:35:35,269 --> 03:35:32,800
you indirectly prove it to be true

6371
03:35:38,790 --> 03:35:35,279
that's aristotelian logic

6372
03:35:41,110 --> 03:35:38,800
if you reject the law of excluded middle

6373
03:35:42,469 --> 03:35:41,120
then proving the impossibility of

6374
03:35:45,269 --> 03:35:42,479
something being false

6375
03:35:46,870 --> 03:35:45,279
does not prove that it's true an

6376
03:35:48,070 --> 03:35:46,880
intuitionist would say you can only

6377
03:35:51,110 --> 03:35:48,080
prove it to be true

6378
03:35:51,990 --> 03:35:51,120
if you produce an instance of it if you

6379
03:35:55,429 --> 03:35:52,000
construct

6380
03:35:58,950 --> 03:35:55,439
it and i think that that's what is

6381
03:36:00,630 --> 03:35:58,960
ultimately true uh mind at large

6382
03:36:01,990 --> 03:36:00,640
does not follow the law of excluded

6383
03:36:04,229 --> 03:36:02,000
middle i think you see you know

6384
03:36:05,429 --> 03:36:04,239
people who undergo experiences of

6385
03:36:06,550 --> 03:36:05,439
altered states

6386
03:36:08,790 --> 03:36:06,560
they come back and say that was

6387
03:36:10,309 --> 03:36:08,800
completely logical but so real

6388
03:36:12,309 --> 03:36:10,319
what they are referring to is that the

6389
03:36:14,550 --> 03:36:12,319
law of excluded middle didn't apply so

6390
03:36:17,590 --> 03:36:14,560
aristotelian logic didn't apply

6391
03:36:20,710 --> 03:36:17,600
but things exist by virtue

6392
03:36:22,550 --> 03:36:20,720
of an instance of them being produced in

6393
03:36:25,590 --> 03:36:22,560
other words thing only exists

6394
03:36:27,670 --> 03:36:25,600
when they actually exist as opposed to

6395
03:36:30,070 --> 03:36:27,680
their abstract non-existence being

6396
03:36:33,110 --> 03:36:30,080
disproven according to some conceptual

6397
03:36:34,469 --> 03:36:33,120
system formal system so i reject that

6398
03:36:36,950 --> 03:36:34,479
and i'm an intuitionist

6399
03:36:39,030 --> 03:36:36,960
yeah not to lower in estimation you're

6400
03:36:40,790 --> 03:36:39,040
suffering from tinnitus but there

6401
03:36:42,469 --> 03:36:40,800
if you think that's bad try having a

6402
03:36:44,070 --> 03:36:42,479
math professor who's an intuitionist

6403
03:36:45,830 --> 03:36:44,080
logic

6404
03:36:48,710 --> 03:36:45,840
person making you construct from scratch

6405
03:36:51,190 --> 03:36:48,720
and not allow proofs by contradiction

6406
03:36:52,389 --> 03:36:51,200
there you go okay so you also mentioned

6407
03:36:54,550 --> 03:36:52,399
one time when you were talking to

6408
03:36:55,910 --> 03:36:54,560
steve patterson from patterson pursuits

6409
03:36:57,830 --> 03:36:55,920
or patterson in pursuit

6410
03:36:59,670 --> 03:36:57,840
that what we're doing right now me and

6411
03:37:01,269 --> 03:36:59,680
you we're speaking in the

6412
03:37:02,950 --> 03:37:01,279
domain of rationality and reason and

6413
03:37:05,190 --> 03:37:02,960
logic evidence so and so on

6414
03:37:06,229 --> 03:37:05,200
rupert spira who you spoke who you would

6415
03:37:07,670 --> 03:37:06,239
speak to wouldn't

6416
03:37:09,190 --> 03:37:07,680
even buy into that game you're playing

6417
03:37:10,870 --> 03:37:09,200
in a different arena but you said that

6418
03:37:12,630 --> 03:37:10,880
what i'm doing or sorry you said that

6419
03:37:14,790 --> 03:37:12,640
what you're doing is

6420
03:37:15,990 --> 03:37:14,800
this is the norm so you have to play in

6421
03:37:17,510 --> 03:37:16,000
this game but you ultimately

6422
03:37:19,429 --> 03:37:17,520
believe it's incomplete and this is not

6423
03:37:20,229 --> 03:37:19,439
the game we should be playing so to make

6424
03:37:22,630 --> 03:37:20,239
an analogy

6425
03:37:24,710 --> 03:37:22,640
it would be like you're trying to best

6426
03:37:26,630 --> 03:37:24,720
someone at soccer to show them that

6427
03:37:28,469 --> 03:37:26,640
basketball is better so then what i'm

6428
03:37:31,750 --> 03:37:28,479
wondering is okay so what is the

6429
03:37:32,790 --> 03:37:31,760
game of all games the game of all games

6430
03:37:35,830 --> 03:37:32,800
is

6431
03:37:38,070 --> 03:37:35,840
knowledge by acquaintance not knowledge

6432
03:37:39,910 --> 03:37:38,080
by conceptualization concepts only point

6433
03:37:40,790 --> 03:37:39,920
at something but they are not the thing

6434
03:37:44,630 --> 03:37:40,800
they are pointing

6435
03:37:45,670 --> 03:37:44,640
at right so to know the truth

6436
03:37:47,349 --> 03:37:45,680
conceptually

6437
03:37:49,349 --> 03:37:47,359
means that you know the direction it's

6438
03:37:50,469 --> 03:37:49,359
pointing to but you're not acquainted

6439
03:37:53,190 --> 03:37:50,479
with the truth

6440
03:37:54,710 --> 03:37:53,200
until it's embodied so you may be

6441
03:37:56,389 --> 03:37:54,720
convinced that something is true but

6442
03:37:57,750 --> 03:37:56,399
it's not in your body and doesn't change

6443
03:37:58,550 --> 03:37:57,760
your life and doesn't make you feel

6444
03:38:00,150 --> 03:37:58,560
differently

6445
03:38:02,309 --> 03:38:00,160
so you may be intellectually convinced

6446
03:38:02,950 --> 03:38:02,319
materialism is false but you still may

6447
03:38:04,950 --> 03:38:02,960
dread

6448
03:38:06,309 --> 03:38:04,960
the oblivion of your consciousness

6449
03:38:08,150 --> 03:38:06,319
coming upon death

6450
03:38:10,070 --> 03:38:08,160
in other words you didn't embody your

6451
03:38:11,269 --> 03:38:10,080
intellectual conclusion what's governing

6452
03:38:12,710 --> 03:38:11,279
your emotional life

6453
03:38:14,550 --> 03:38:12,720
it's something else it's not your

6454
03:38:16,229 --> 03:38:14,560
intellectual conclusion the conclusion

6455
03:38:19,429 --> 03:38:16,239
didn't sink from here

6456
03:38:21,190 --> 03:38:19,439
down to the emotional self so it's not

6457
03:38:21,910 --> 03:38:21,200
really transformative it's not guiding

6458
03:38:24,150 --> 03:38:21,920
your life

6459
03:38:26,229 --> 03:38:24,160
now i play purely an intellectual game

6460
03:38:27,349 --> 03:38:26,239
rupert spyra rupert plays the game of

6461
03:38:28,710 --> 03:38:27,359
embodied truth

6462
03:38:31,349 --> 03:38:28,720
he's not trying to convince you

6463
03:38:33,349 --> 03:38:31,359
intellectually at all he completely

6464
03:38:34,790 --> 03:38:33,359
bypasses that he neglects that

6465
03:38:36,550 --> 03:38:34,800
he's trying to bring you truth by

6466
03:38:37,429 --> 03:38:36,560
acquaintance in other words if you

6467
03:38:39,590 --> 03:38:37,439
experience

6468
03:38:41,269 --> 03:38:39,600
oneness you do not need a narrative that

6469
03:38:42,229 --> 03:38:41,279
tells you that one is true you've been

6470
03:38:45,269 --> 03:38:42,239
there

6471
03:38:46,229 --> 03:38:45,279
it's in you no you short circuit it you

6472
03:38:48,550 --> 03:38:46,239
bypass it

6473
03:38:50,870 --> 03:38:48,560
that's his game and it's the only game

6474
03:38:53,510 --> 03:38:50,880
that is truly transformative that will

6475
03:38:55,110 --> 03:38:53,520
really change your life everything else

6476
03:38:57,269 --> 03:38:55,120
is in the head

6477
03:38:59,429 --> 03:38:57,279
it doesn't sink into the rest so why do

6478
03:39:01,910 --> 03:38:59,439
i play the intellectual game

6479
03:39:03,830 --> 03:39:01,920
because i think that a lot of people who

6480
03:39:05,429 --> 03:39:03,840
are perfectly capable of knowing the

6481
03:39:06,950 --> 03:39:05,439
truth by acquaintance

6482
03:39:09,030 --> 03:39:06,960
and who would have known the truth by

6483
03:39:11,189 --> 03:39:09,040
acquaintance don't

6484
03:39:12,790 --> 03:39:11,199
because their intellect is the bouncer

6485
03:39:15,590 --> 03:39:12,800
of their heart

6486
03:39:17,269 --> 03:39:15,600
they will not give themselves permission

6487
03:39:18,710 --> 03:39:17,279
to be acquainted with what's true

6488
03:39:20,550 --> 03:39:18,720
because the intellect is telling them no

6489
03:39:23,030 --> 03:39:20,560
this cannot be true

6490
03:39:24,150 --> 03:39:23,040
and that's that evil little voice like

6491
03:39:26,710 --> 03:39:24,160
this cannot be true

6492
03:39:28,150 --> 03:39:26,720
it cannot be the case so it's not and

6493
03:39:30,870 --> 03:39:28,160
that closes you up

6494
03:39:31,590 --> 03:39:30,880
and it amputates a huge part of your

6495
03:39:34,309 --> 03:39:31,600
mind

6496
03:39:36,389 --> 03:39:34,319
of your capability to experience uh

6497
03:39:38,630 --> 03:39:36,399
what's actually going on it is

6498
03:39:39,750 --> 03:39:38,640
shut off um by an intellectual

6499
03:39:41,910 --> 03:39:39,760
conclusion which is not

6500
03:39:44,070 --> 03:39:41,920
in itself transformative but it can

6501
03:39:45,750 --> 03:39:44,080
amputate the degrees of freedom

6502
03:39:47,990 --> 03:39:45,760
that you're true in your life your

6503
03:39:50,630 --> 03:39:48,000
emotion in your life would otherwise

6504
03:39:52,469 --> 03:39:50,640
have it cuts up the map and offers you a

6505
03:39:53,510 --> 03:39:52,479
much more restricted territory that you

6506
03:39:55,590 --> 03:39:53,520
can explore

6507
03:39:57,750 --> 03:39:55,600
and makes you blind and inaccessible to

6508
03:39:58,469 --> 03:39:57,760
the rest and therefore it precludes you

6509
03:40:00,630 --> 03:39:58,479
from

6510
03:40:01,750 --> 03:40:00,640
becoming acquainted with what is true

6511
03:40:03,030 --> 03:40:01,760
because you don't give yourself

6512
03:40:05,110 --> 03:40:03,040
intellectual permission

6513
03:40:06,630 --> 03:40:05,120
to become acquainted with it so i play

6514
03:40:08,630 --> 03:40:06,640
the intellectual game because i want to

6515
03:40:09,510 --> 03:40:08,640
help people give themselves intellectual

6516
03:40:13,269 --> 03:40:09,520
permission

6517
03:40:15,670 --> 03:40:13,279
to explore the fullness of their nature

6518
03:40:16,309 --> 03:40:15,680
as living beings as dissociated outers

6519
03:40:18,710 --> 03:40:16,319
because the

6520
03:40:20,389 --> 03:40:18,720
dissociated outer while it's alive it's

6521
03:40:21,510 --> 03:40:20,399
dissociated but even in that state of

6522
03:40:23,750 --> 03:40:21,520
dissociation

6523
03:40:24,870 --> 03:40:23,760
it can become acquainted with things

6524
03:40:27,150 --> 03:40:24,880
that

6525
03:40:29,349 --> 03:40:27,160
our mainstream cultural narrative

6526
03:40:31,510 --> 03:40:29,359
categorically today says

6527
03:40:32,469 --> 03:40:31,520
are either impossible or if they

6528
03:40:34,710 --> 03:40:32,479
actually happen

6529
03:40:35,510 --> 03:40:34,720
illusory and therefore should be

6530
03:40:38,150 --> 03:40:35,520
dismissed

6531
03:40:38,870 --> 03:40:38,160
and not taken seriously and that is the

6532
03:40:42,150 --> 03:40:38,880
greatest

6533
03:40:44,309 --> 03:40:42,160
tragedy of our age that not only do we

6534
03:40:46,070 --> 03:40:44,319
know where the solutions lie

6535
03:40:47,910 --> 03:40:46,080
but that we actually every now and then

6536
03:40:50,229 --> 03:40:47,920
experience the solution

6537
03:40:52,389 --> 03:40:50,239
but dismiss it because of this

6538
03:40:54,870 --> 03:40:52,399
pernicious cultural narrative that tells

6539
03:40:56,389 --> 03:40:54,880
us what can and cannot be true

6540
03:40:57,429 --> 03:40:56,399
you mentioned you had a great phrase i

6541
03:40:58,950 --> 03:40:57,439
don't know if you just came up with it

6542
03:40:59,510 --> 03:40:58,960
the intellectual side is the bouncer of

6543
03:41:01,590 --> 03:40:59,520
the heart

6544
03:41:03,910 --> 03:41:01,600
yeah i often used this in this one okay

6545
03:41:06,550 --> 03:41:03,920
that's a great one i haven't heard that

6546
03:41:08,229 --> 03:41:06,560
now should the heart be the ultimate

6547
03:41:09,910 --> 03:41:08,239
adjudicator that is

6548
03:41:11,269 --> 03:41:09,920
don't let the authoritative judgment go

6549
03:41:13,349 --> 03:41:11,279
to the intellect but

6550
03:41:14,790 --> 03:41:13,359
only let it be the heart is there a mix

6551
03:41:17,189 --> 03:41:14,800
and then what decides that mix

6552
03:41:18,710 --> 03:41:17,199
something above both heart and intellect

6553
03:41:20,229 --> 03:41:18,720
the heart is a metaphor what i mean is

6554
03:41:22,550 --> 03:41:20,239
your true emotional life how you

6555
03:41:24,870 --> 03:41:22,560
how you actually feel irrespective of

6556
03:41:26,710 --> 03:41:24,880
what you think you should be feeling

6557
03:41:28,150 --> 03:41:26,720
you see what i mean we often tell

6558
03:41:30,950 --> 03:41:28,160
ourselves well my life is

6559
03:41:32,870 --> 03:41:30,960
is great um everything is in order and

6560
03:41:34,389 --> 03:41:32,880
yet i'm massively depressed

6561
03:41:36,469 --> 03:41:34,399
and and you can't pin it down your

6562
03:41:37,830 --> 03:41:36,479
intellect doesn't have an answer because

6563
03:41:38,550 --> 03:41:37,840
according to the intellect everything is

6564
03:41:40,950 --> 03:41:38,560
okay

6565
03:41:41,990 --> 03:41:40,960
but your true feelings are what counts

6566
03:41:43,750 --> 03:41:42,000
they are your true self

6567
03:41:45,030 --> 03:41:43,760
the intellect is a construct on top of

6568
03:41:46,790 --> 03:41:45,040
it uh

6569
03:41:48,870 --> 03:41:46,800
your emotions are the foundation and

6570
03:41:51,750 --> 03:41:48,880
they are ultimately your real life and

6571
03:41:52,950 --> 03:41:51,760
you cannot escape that so the heart is a

6572
03:41:54,790 --> 03:41:52,960
metaphor for that

6573
03:41:57,269 --> 03:41:54,800
maybe more than that maybe the heart is

6574
03:41:59,189 --> 03:41:57,279
the image of that particular

6575
03:42:01,189 --> 03:41:59,199
part that particular configuration of

6576
03:42:04,469 --> 03:42:01,199
mind um

6577
03:42:05,590 --> 03:42:04,479
but um well that wouldn't i mean

6578
03:42:06,710 --> 03:42:05,600
technically that wouldn't be the case

6579
03:42:13,030 --> 03:42:06,720
unless you want to make a case that

6580
03:42:18,309 --> 03:42:16,389
so heart is a metaphor for your true

6581
03:42:20,229 --> 03:42:18,319
emotional inner life and then you say

6582
03:42:21,269 --> 03:42:20,239
well should that be the judge i would

6583
03:42:25,269 --> 03:42:21,279
say

6584
03:42:28,389 --> 03:42:25,279
the question is unnecessary because

6585
03:42:29,990 --> 03:42:28,399
it is how you feel so you don't really

6586
03:42:31,670 --> 03:42:30,000
have a choice there

6587
03:42:33,429 --> 03:42:31,680
do i choose to feel that way or not and

6588
03:42:34,790 --> 03:42:33,439
that's that's our dilemma we think the

6589
03:42:36,870 --> 03:42:34,800
intellect has a choice

6590
03:42:38,790 --> 03:42:36,880
as a say on that that if we tell

6591
03:42:40,870 --> 03:42:38,800
ourselves i achieved everything i wanted

6592
03:42:41,830 --> 03:42:40,880
so i should be happy and therefore i am

6593
03:42:44,389 --> 03:42:41,840
happy well

6594
03:42:45,990 --> 03:42:44,399
guess what you don't get to choose you

6595
03:42:46,550 --> 03:42:46,000
may achieve everything you think you

6596
03:42:48,710 --> 03:42:46,560
wanted

6597
03:42:51,189 --> 03:42:48,720
and you still may be massively depressed

6598
03:42:54,070 --> 03:42:51,199
inside because the life you truly live

6599
03:42:55,750 --> 03:42:54,080
is the life of how you feel not the life

6600
03:42:58,710 --> 03:42:55,760
of what you think

6601
03:43:00,469 --> 03:42:58,720
so you know in that sense the heart is

6602
03:43:01,910 --> 03:43:00,479
the master whether you admit it or not

6603
03:43:04,150 --> 03:43:01,920
whether you want it or not

6604
03:43:06,870 --> 03:43:04,160
whether you can rationalize it or not

6605
03:43:08,870 --> 03:43:06,880
you are living your heart by definition

6606
03:43:10,870 --> 03:43:08,880
what you leave is your heart not what

6607
03:43:12,790 --> 03:43:10,880
you think when the intellect is in

6608
03:43:14,870 --> 03:43:12,800
charge quote unquote it's because the

6609
03:43:17,429 --> 03:43:14,880
heart let it be

6610
03:43:19,429 --> 03:43:17,439
no well it's never in charge you always

6611
03:43:21,590 --> 03:43:19,439
feel the way you feel

6612
03:43:23,429 --> 03:43:21,600
regardless of what you think about it

6613
03:43:26,469 --> 03:43:23,439
but i'm taking this bouncer

6614
03:43:30,150 --> 03:43:26,479
analogy too far then that no no no no

6615
03:43:33,429 --> 03:43:30,160
no you feel the way you feel

6616
03:43:35,510 --> 03:43:33,439
but you could feel differently if only

6617
03:43:36,950 --> 03:43:35,520
your intellect would give you permission

6618
03:43:41,349 --> 03:43:36,960
to experience that

6619
03:43:44,389 --> 03:43:41,359
other thing so the intellect is a filter

6620
03:43:47,590 --> 03:43:44,399
but it's not how you feel

6621
03:43:50,630 --> 03:43:47,600
you feel the way you feel

6622
03:43:52,150 --> 03:43:50,640
what your intellect thinks may correlate

6623
03:43:53,750 --> 03:43:52,160
with how you feel

6624
03:43:55,269 --> 03:43:53,760
but that correlation usually that works

6625
03:43:56,550 --> 03:43:55,279
the way it usually works the way around

6626
03:43:58,309 --> 03:43:56,560
you feel the way you feel and then you

6627
03:43:59,830 --> 03:43:58,319
look for an intellectual explanation for

6628
03:44:02,229 --> 03:43:59,840
why you feel the way you feel

6629
03:44:03,429 --> 03:44:02,239
yeah but the other way around doesn't

6630
03:44:05,590 --> 03:44:03,439
work you can't

6631
03:44:08,229 --> 03:44:05,600
tell yourself to be happy you can't

6632
03:44:10,950 --> 03:44:08,239
convince yourself that you are happy

6633
03:44:14,150 --> 03:44:10,960
um but if you are unhappy and you could

6634
03:44:17,590 --> 03:44:14,160
come out of unhappiness by exploring

6635
03:44:21,110 --> 03:44:17,600
a previously unknown room in the mansion

6636
03:44:23,590 --> 03:44:21,120
of your mind the intellect

6637
03:44:24,630 --> 03:44:23,600
make the intellect doesn't really close

6638
03:44:26,070 --> 03:44:24,640
that door to you

6639
03:44:28,150 --> 03:44:26,080
but it convince you that it's

6640
03:44:29,910 --> 03:44:28,160
unnecessary to open it

6641
03:44:31,510 --> 03:44:29,920
was there a moment or an insight that

6642
03:44:33,349 --> 03:44:31,520
brought you from that place of suffering

6643
03:44:34,229 --> 03:44:33,359
that you experienced about a year to

6644
03:44:36,469 --> 03:44:34,239
three years ago

6645
03:44:37,590 --> 03:44:36,479
to now or was it a gradual process

6646
03:44:39,830 --> 03:44:37,600
gradual process

6647
03:44:41,590 --> 03:44:39,840
yeah it happens under your nose you

6648
03:44:42,150 --> 03:44:41,600
cannot you only see it in hindsight you

6649
03:44:44,309 --> 03:44:42,160
look back and

6650
03:44:45,910 --> 03:44:44,319
oh i have been feeling different for a

6651
03:44:48,950 --> 03:44:45,920
few months now oh

6652
03:44:50,150 --> 03:44:48,960
interesting how is it that you get your

6653
03:44:51,670 --> 03:44:50,160
ideas writ

6654
03:44:53,269 --> 03:44:51,680
sorry how is it that you formulate your

6655
03:44:55,670 --> 03:44:53,279
ideas see for me

6656
03:44:56,870 --> 03:44:55,680
writing is something that i have to

6657
03:44:58,950 --> 03:44:56,880
force myself to do

6658
03:45:00,550 --> 03:44:58,960
in the sense that i made it a habit so

6659
03:45:03,510 --> 03:45:00,560
now i do it each morning

6660
03:45:05,189 --> 03:45:03,520
but i had to tell myself to do that

6661
03:45:06,630 --> 03:45:05,199
ideas come to me somewhat naturally and

6662
03:45:08,950 --> 03:45:06,640
i just write it down on my

6663
03:45:10,229 --> 03:45:08,960
on my phone so that they just spew out

6664
03:45:13,830 --> 03:45:10,239
at any moment

6665
03:45:16,630 --> 03:45:13,840
even right now it's it's frantic but

6666
03:45:20,070 --> 03:45:16,640
writing itself is a it's a chore i have

6667
03:45:26,469 --> 03:45:23,349
so how is it that you write and

6668
03:45:27,030 --> 03:45:26,479
formulate your sorry what i'm trying to

6669
03:45:29,510 --> 03:45:27,040
say is

6670
03:45:31,189 --> 03:45:29,520
do your ideas come almost ready made and

6671
03:45:31,429 --> 03:45:31,199
then it's just a matter of typing them

6672
03:45:33,510 --> 03:45:31,439
out

6673
03:45:35,269 --> 03:45:33,520
or does the writing process help clarify

6674
03:45:37,110 --> 03:45:35,279
refine and what does that look like is

6675
03:45:39,189 --> 03:45:37,120
it just you rewriting you re you

6676
03:45:40,870 --> 03:45:39,199
just you vomited out onto the paper at

6677
03:45:43,429 --> 03:45:40,880
first and then you

6678
03:45:46,150 --> 03:45:43,439
fix the mess like pretty much please

6679
03:45:49,189 --> 03:45:46,160
take me through your process of writing

6680
03:45:50,710 --> 03:45:49,199
it's not a choice it doesn't happen at

6681
03:45:55,429 --> 03:45:50,720
the time or form

6682
03:45:59,110 --> 03:45:55,439
of my choosing so the ideas just

6683
03:46:02,150 --> 03:45:59,120
come with an overwhelming force that

6684
03:46:04,950 --> 03:46:02,160
makes me feel very small

6685
03:46:07,750 --> 03:46:04,960
but the writing process does help

6686
03:46:11,510 --> 03:46:07,760
articulate the ideas in words

6687
03:46:15,590 --> 03:46:11,520
it helps me tell myself what it is

6688
03:46:17,110 --> 03:46:15,600
that that i think i know

6689
03:46:18,790 --> 03:46:17,120
you know what i mean because it's one

6690
03:46:20,790 --> 03:46:18,800
thing to have an understanding and it's

6691
03:46:22,870 --> 03:46:20,800
another thing entirely different

6692
03:46:25,110 --> 03:46:22,880
to tell yourself in words what it is

6693
03:46:28,309 --> 03:46:25,120
that you think you understand

6694
03:46:29,590 --> 03:46:28,319
so the ideas come as that instantaneous

6695
03:46:33,349 --> 03:46:29,600
understanding

6696
03:46:36,389 --> 03:46:33,359
boom there may be three volumes in that

6697
03:46:38,070 --> 03:46:36,399
but i cannot tell myself what it is that

6698
03:46:39,910 --> 03:46:38,080
i understood

6699
03:46:41,510 --> 03:46:39,920
until i go through the writing process

6700
03:46:43,030 --> 03:46:41,520
ah that's super interesting

6701
03:46:45,110 --> 03:46:43,040
because to me i wouldn't phrase it like

6702
03:46:46,710 --> 03:46:45,120
that i would say that i don't understand

6703
03:46:48,309 --> 03:46:46,720
it until i can write it out and

6704
03:46:50,150 --> 03:46:48,319
reread it and then it makes sense like

6705
03:46:51,830 --> 03:46:50,160
to me i can feel like i understood it

6706
03:46:54,309 --> 03:46:51,840
but it's an amorphous mess

6707
03:46:55,510 --> 03:46:54,319
of intuition and that's and i guess what

6708
03:46:56,389 --> 03:46:55,520
you're doing is you're listening to your

6709
03:46:58,550 --> 03:46:56,399
heart you're saying well

6710
03:46:59,429 --> 03:46:58,560
you intuit it you're correct and i'm

6711
03:47:02,469 --> 03:46:59,439
saying

6712
03:47:03,429 --> 03:47:02,479
no i could be a choice it's not even a

6713
03:47:05,990 --> 03:47:03,439
choice because

6714
03:47:06,870 --> 03:47:06,000
as i'm writing the reason i say that the

6715
03:47:10,309 --> 03:47:06,880
idea comes

6716
03:47:11,750 --> 03:47:10,319
all formed is that if i immediately

6717
03:47:15,110 --> 03:47:11,760
start writing

6718
03:47:18,630 --> 03:47:15,120
i know in a

6719
03:47:19,830 --> 03:47:18,640
in an overwhelming way whether i am what

6720
03:47:23,030 --> 03:47:19,840
i am writing

6721
03:47:24,389 --> 03:47:23,040
uh is correct or not uh

6722
03:47:26,150 --> 03:47:24,399
in other words whether before you write

6723
03:47:30,790 --> 03:47:26,160
it

6724
03:47:32,550 --> 03:47:30,800
lost in my thoughts and i lose contact

6725
03:47:34,870 --> 03:47:32,560
with the original idea that it's still

6726
03:47:36,309 --> 03:47:34,880
sitting like a ball of hot iron

6727
03:47:39,670 --> 03:47:36,319
somewhere here

6728
03:47:41,510 --> 03:47:39,680
um if i deviate from that very quickly

6729
03:47:44,070 --> 03:47:41,520
i read what i i read what i wrote and i

6730
03:47:47,830 --> 03:47:44,080
go like no no that's not it that's not

6731
03:47:49,670 --> 03:47:47,840
it so the the reference is always there

6732
03:47:51,349 --> 03:47:49,680
from the beginning it's like i always

6733
03:47:53,030 --> 03:47:51,359
know where i wrote

6734
03:47:54,550 --> 03:47:53,040
or whether i wrote something that does

6735
03:47:56,870 --> 03:47:54,560
justice to what

6736
03:47:59,590 --> 03:47:56,880
to to that intuition so that's what

6737
03:48:02,389 --> 03:47:59,600
leads me to tell you that

6738
03:48:02,950 --> 03:48:02,399
the knowledge is there from from moment

6739
03:48:05,510 --> 03:48:02,960
zero

6740
03:48:06,070 --> 03:48:05,520
because i can always compare that

6741
03:48:07,590 --> 03:48:06,080
against

6742
03:48:09,349 --> 03:48:07,600
that feeling and know whether i'm

6743
03:48:10,710 --> 03:48:09,359
writing nonsense or whether i'm doing

6744
03:48:12,950 --> 03:48:10,720
justice to it

6745
03:48:14,150 --> 03:48:12,960
so from that point on the work becomes

6746
03:48:17,269 --> 03:48:14,160
one of labor

6747
03:48:19,670 --> 03:48:17,279
it's giving words to it but it helps me

6748
03:48:20,309 --> 03:48:19,680
reconcile myself with that thing that

6749
03:48:22,309 --> 03:48:20,319
comes

6750
03:48:24,309 --> 03:48:22,319
because it allows me to tell myself in

6751
03:48:25,429 --> 03:48:24,319
words what it is that i think i

6752
03:48:28,710 --> 03:48:25,439
understood

6753
03:48:31,670 --> 03:48:28,720
know what i mean and for me as as an ego

6754
03:48:33,830 --> 03:48:31,680
this wording to myself of what i think i

6755
03:48:36,710 --> 03:48:33,840
understand is very important that

6756
03:48:37,349 --> 03:48:36,720
um if for as long as i'm not able to do

6757
03:48:40,710 --> 03:48:37,359
that

6758
03:48:42,710 --> 03:48:40,720
i feel an enormous urgency

6759
03:48:44,790 --> 03:48:42,720
that doesn't let me sleep doesn't let me

6760
03:48:47,830 --> 03:48:44,800
focus on anything else in life

6761
03:48:48,710 --> 03:48:47,840
i only buy myself out of that i only buy

6762
03:48:50,630 --> 03:48:48,720
my freedom

6763
03:48:52,550 --> 03:48:50,640
once it's all laid out in words and then

6764
03:48:55,189 --> 03:48:52,560
i feel like i've been released

6765
03:48:55,990 --> 03:48:55,199
it's like someone was holding a leash i

6766
03:48:58,630 --> 03:48:56,000
was leashed

6767
03:49:00,229 --> 03:48:58,640
and and once i do that i get my ticket

6768
03:49:03,590 --> 03:49:00,239
to freedom and i'm let go

6769
03:49:06,710 --> 03:49:03,600
until the next book comes um so it

6770
03:49:08,710 --> 03:49:06,720
it's not glamorous at all it's not

6771
03:49:10,389 --> 03:49:08,720
spiritual

6772
03:49:12,070 --> 03:49:10,399
and you know what i mean it's it's not

6773
03:49:14,389 --> 03:49:12,080
this romantic

6774
03:49:15,429 --> 03:49:14,399
vision we have about the muse and the

6775
03:49:17,349 --> 03:49:15,439
intuition

6776
03:49:18,870 --> 03:49:17,359
and something coming to the world

6777
03:49:20,469 --> 03:49:18,880
through you well guess what that's

6778
03:49:21,429 --> 03:49:20,479
exactly what happened something comes to

6779
03:49:27,670 --> 03:49:21,439
the

6780
03:49:31,429 --> 03:49:27,680
about it it's

6781
03:49:35,189 --> 03:49:31,439
it's it's gritty it's sweaty

6782
03:49:38,389 --> 03:49:35,199
it's cruel um not glamorous

6783
03:49:40,630 --> 03:49:38,399
not romantic and not spiritual it's like

6784
03:49:42,710 --> 03:49:40,640
you just want to get rid of that

6785
03:49:43,990 --> 03:49:42,720
ball of hot iron you want to vomit it

6786
03:49:46,150 --> 03:49:44,000
out and and

6787
03:49:48,469 --> 03:49:46,160
be rid of it and and be free for a

6788
03:49:50,790 --> 03:49:48,479
little while until the next one comes

6789
03:49:51,990 --> 03:49:50,800
um that has always been my relationship

6790
03:49:54,950 --> 03:49:52,000
with my writing the

6791
03:49:56,150 --> 03:49:54,960
impression i have is that this stuff is

6792
03:49:59,110 --> 03:49:56,160
not me at all

6793
03:49:59,429 --> 03:49:59,120
this stuff is there pregnant somewhere

6794
03:50:02,309 --> 03:49:59,439
uh

6795
03:50:03,030 --> 03:50:02,319
in in the framework behind space and

6796
03:50:05,510 --> 03:50:03,040
time

6797
03:50:07,189 --> 03:50:05,520
it's sitting there and it wants to erupt

6798
03:50:08,710 --> 03:50:07,199
like it wants to go through a volcano

6799
03:50:09,510 --> 03:50:08,720
like the lava building pressure

6800
03:50:11,429 --> 03:50:09,520
underneath

6801
03:50:13,110 --> 03:50:11,439
it wants to erupt but it doesn't find a

6802
03:50:15,910 --> 03:50:13,120
channel you know what i mean

6803
03:50:17,030 --> 03:50:15,920
interesting then i just happened to pass

6804
03:50:20,229 --> 03:50:17,040
by

6805
03:50:22,550 --> 03:50:20,239
and now going about my business and then

6806
03:50:24,389 --> 03:50:22,560
oh that guy that guy would do he has

6807
03:50:27,429 --> 03:50:24,399
some conceptual armor

6808
03:50:28,790 --> 03:50:27,439
that will allow the translation of this

6809
03:50:31,030 --> 03:50:28,800
hot iron this hot

6810
03:50:32,070 --> 03:50:31,040
lava stuff which was a metaphor jung

6811
03:50:33,750 --> 03:50:32,080
himself used

6812
03:50:36,150 --> 03:50:33,760
this lava stuff you'll be able to give

6813
03:50:38,630 --> 03:50:36,160
it words so that's the instrument

6814
03:50:40,550 --> 03:50:38,640
so no put him on a leash don't let him

6815
03:50:44,150 --> 03:50:40,560
go he will be a hard slave

6816
03:50:45,910 --> 03:50:44,160
now that i'm i'm speaking metaphorically

6817
03:50:47,349 --> 03:50:45,920
but that's how it feels like i was in

6818
03:50:47,670 --> 03:50:47,359
the wrong place at the wrong time and i

6819
03:50:50,950 --> 03:50:47,680
got

6820
03:50:51,910 --> 03:50:50,960
caught and and now i'm stuck

6821
03:50:53,830 --> 03:50:51,920
just because you have the right

6822
03:50:55,510 --> 03:50:53,840
preconditions for it so yeah the way

6823
03:50:56,150 --> 03:50:55,520
that i'm making an analogy in my head is

6824
03:50:58,309 --> 03:50:56,160
not with a

6825
03:50:59,750 --> 03:50:58,319
volcano but with lightning and it has

6826
03:51:01,349 --> 03:50:59,760
some charges built up some potential and

6827
03:51:01,990 --> 03:51:01,359
now it's looking for some place where

6828
03:51:04,070 --> 03:51:02,000
can it release

6829
03:51:05,269 --> 03:51:04,080
it yeah then it's all resistance and it

6830
03:51:07,189 --> 03:51:05,279
hurts and it was me

6831
03:51:08,550 --> 03:51:07,199
something about my background uh

6832
03:51:10,389 --> 03:51:08,560
computer engineering artificial

6833
03:51:12,469 --> 03:51:10,399
intelligence on the one hand but a lot

6834
03:51:14,389 --> 03:51:12,479
of philosophical receptive on the other

6835
03:51:15,590 --> 03:51:14,399
lived in four countries thinking three

6836
03:51:18,229 --> 03:51:15,600
languages

6837
03:51:18,710 --> 03:51:18,239
something about that probably made me

6838
03:51:26,630 --> 03:51:18,720
the

6839
03:51:29,990 --> 03:51:26,640
sense it doesn't feel good

6840
03:51:32,790 --> 03:51:30,000
to have lightening fast not for you it

6841
03:51:35,189 --> 03:51:32,800
feels horrible and um and again only

6842
03:51:37,590 --> 03:51:35,199
this year i made peace with it

6843
03:51:38,790 --> 03:51:37,600
i stopped fighting it uh i stopped

6844
03:51:40,950 --> 03:51:38,800
thinking of it as

6845
03:51:42,309 --> 03:51:40,960
this responsibility i didn't want to

6846
03:51:45,030 --> 03:51:42,319
have this this

6847
03:51:46,150 --> 03:51:45,040
thing that makes me unable to enjoy life

6848
03:51:48,630 --> 03:51:46,160
it gives me meaning

6849
03:51:49,349 --> 03:51:48,640
and i'm eternally grateful for that my

6850
03:51:51,590 --> 03:51:49,359
life

6851
03:51:52,710 --> 03:51:51,600
never lacks meaning and that's the most

6852
03:51:55,030 --> 03:51:52,720
important thing

6853
03:51:56,469 --> 03:51:55,040
but it has not been pleasant for the

6854
03:51:59,030 --> 03:51:56,479
longest of times

6855
03:52:00,630 --> 03:51:59,040
and the making peace with that and that

6856
03:52:01,349 --> 03:52:00,640
that's what i call the freedom of the

6857
03:52:07,429 --> 03:52:01,359
slave

6858
03:52:08,950 --> 03:52:07,439
in a in a two by two meter cubicle

6859
03:52:11,349 --> 03:52:08,960
without a window

6860
03:52:12,710 --> 03:52:11,359
now you're free man nobody can take that

6861
03:52:13,590 --> 03:52:12,720
freedom from you if you find that

6862
03:52:16,309 --> 03:52:13,600
freedom

6863
03:52:17,030 --> 03:52:16,319
as a slave leeched in a cubicle without

6864
03:52:20,150 --> 03:52:17,040
a window

6865
03:52:22,630 --> 03:52:20,160
if you find it there it can never

6866
03:52:24,550 --> 03:52:22,640
be taken away from you and i'm glowing

6867
03:52:26,150 --> 03:52:24,560
about it now because it's so recent and

6868
03:52:27,590 --> 03:52:26,160
i'm sure i'll be very cynical about it a

6869
03:52:29,670 --> 03:52:27,600
couple of years from now and

6870
03:52:31,590 --> 03:52:29,680
life will be rotten again and somebody

6871
03:52:33,030 --> 03:52:31,600
will get cancer or i or i'll lose

6872
03:52:34,309 --> 03:52:33,040
somebody i love and it will be

6873
03:52:36,150 --> 03:52:34,319
again

6874
03:52:38,469 --> 03:52:36,160
but right now i'm glowing because i

6875
03:52:39,750 --> 03:52:38,479
found the freedom of the slave i stopped

6876
03:52:44,150 --> 03:52:39,760
pulling on the leash

6877
03:52:47,189 --> 03:52:46,309
and by you doing so see carl jung when

6878
03:52:48,870 --> 03:52:47,199
you read

6879
03:52:50,229 --> 03:52:48,880
you've read jung three times i've barely

6880
03:52:52,389 --> 03:52:50,239
read

6881
03:52:55,349 --> 03:52:52,399
a percentage of his work because it's so

6882
03:52:56,469 --> 03:52:55,359
difficult but when you read jung almost

6883
03:52:59,670 --> 03:52:56,479
every other sentence

6884
03:53:01,269 --> 03:52:59,680
is like a perfect quotation and he had

6885
03:53:04,309 --> 03:53:01,279
one that i

6886
03:53:05,750 --> 03:53:04,319
try to live my life by see i used to be

6887
03:53:07,670 --> 03:53:05,760
and i still am but i used to be much

6888
03:53:07,990 --> 03:53:07,680
much much more egotistical and arrogant

6889
03:53:11,349 --> 03:53:08,000
and think

6890
03:53:12,950 --> 03:53:11,359
that much like you when you're 34 and on

6891
03:53:14,229 --> 03:53:12,960
top of the world and owning a company

6892
03:53:16,870 --> 03:53:14,239
i'm not saying that you were anywhere

6893
03:53:22,389 --> 03:53:16,880
near as megalo maniacal as i am

6894
03:53:23,590 --> 03:53:22,399
or was but but i would would think that

6895
03:53:25,110 --> 03:53:23,600
i want to change the world and i would

6896
03:53:27,349 --> 03:53:25,120
think of myself as such a

6897
03:53:28,870 --> 03:53:27,359
a savior i'd have such a savior complex

6898
03:53:29,750 --> 03:53:28,880
like i'm going to end suffering i'm

6899
03:53:35,429 --> 03:53:29,760
going to

6900
03:53:37,110 --> 03:53:35,439
and even stop animals for harming each

6901
03:53:39,429 --> 03:53:37,120
other and give

6902
03:53:40,710 --> 03:53:39,439
clean water to the rest of the world

6903
03:53:43,750 --> 03:53:40,720
some part of that there's a good

6904
03:53:45,590 --> 03:53:43,760
motivation but a large part of it was

6905
03:53:47,189 --> 03:53:45,600
unconsciously i want to be worshiped as

6906
03:53:48,870 --> 03:53:47,199
the savior i want people to come to me

6907
03:53:50,630 --> 03:53:48,880
say thank you so much kurt

6908
03:53:52,309 --> 03:53:50,640
and that's that was hard for me to it's

6909
03:53:55,269 --> 03:53:52,319
even hard for me to admit right now

6910
03:53:58,550 --> 03:53:55,279
saying it out loud carl jung said that

6911
03:54:01,510 --> 03:53:59,830
in some ways see this is what's so

6912
03:54:02,870 --> 03:54:01,520
tricky about it's like carl jung would

6913
03:54:04,389 --> 03:54:02,880
say you can't save someone

6914
03:54:05,750 --> 03:54:04,399
but then that means like well what if

6915
03:54:06,710 --> 03:54:05,760
they're dying on the ocean you're not

6916
03:54:08,950 --> 03:54:06,720
going to pull them out

6917
03:54:10,469 --> 03:54:08,960
what if someone's on fire well it's more

6918
03:54:11,030 --> 03:54:10,479
like psychologically you can't save

6919
03:54:14,070 --> 03:54:11,040
someone

6920
03:54:15,830 --> 03:54:14,080
you could only carry your own cross

6921
03:54:17,189 --> 03:54:15,840
and hopefully by example you show them

6922
03:54:20,229 --> 03:54:17,199
how to burden theirs yes

6923
03:54:21,750 --> 03:54:20,239
that's part one so yeah hopefully some

6924
03:54:23,110 --> 03:54:21,760
of what i'm doing with this podcast even

6925
03:54:24,150 --> 03:54:23,120
with talking to you and admitting my

6926
03:54:27,750 --> 03:54:24,160
faults and

6927
03:54:31,990 --> 03:54:30,870
me saying that i don't know me not

6928
03:54:34,070 --> 03:54:32,000
knowing much

6929
03:54:35,830 --> 03:54:34,080
and trying to understand these

6930
03:54:39,510 --> 03:54:35,840
variegated

6931
03:54:40,790 --> 03:54:39,520
fields and philosophies and fix myself

6932
03:54:43,830 --> 03:54:40,800
in the process hopefully

6933
03:54:45,429 --> 03:54:43,840
i can i can i can

6934
03:54:46,870 --> 03:54:45,439
shoulder my cross and maybe some people

6935
03:54:49,510 --> 03:54:46,880
can find

6936
03:54:50,870 --> 03:54:49,520
some example in that kurt if i if i may

6937
03:54:53,830 --> 03:54:50,880
tell you something from the heart

6938
03:54:55,910 --> 03:54:53,840
i don't know how you he will receive it

6939
03:54:58,229 --> 03:54:55,920
um

6940
03:54:59,670 --> 03:54:58,239
it would have helped me when i was in a

6941
03:55:01,269 --> 03:54:59,680
similar spot

6942
03:55:02,710 --> 03:55:01,279
so i'll tell you what would have helped

6943
03:55:03,750 --> 03:55:02,720
me which doesn't mean it will help you

6944
03:55:05,750 --> 03:55:03,760
at all

6945
03:55:06,790 --> 03:55:05,760
i would say this my mature self would

6946
03:55:09,830 --> 03:55:06,800
say this to my

6947
03:55:11,110 --> 03:55:09,840
last mature self don't make it too

6948
03:55:13,990 --> 03:55:11,120
complicated

6949
03:55:17,189 --> 03:55:14,000
just don't take yourself too seriously

6950
03:55:19,429 --> 03:55:17,199
it is not all about you

6951
03:55:20,389 --> 03:55:19,439
you are not the sum total of what's

6952
03:55:22,630 --> 03:55:20,399
going on

6953
03:55:25,510 --> 03:55:22,640
if you don't see the meaning don't worry

6954
03:55:28,710 --> 03:55:25,520
about it you don't need to

6955
03:55:31,189 --> 03:55:28,720
you are immersed in an infinite ocean

6956
03:55:32,070 --> 03:55:31,199
of mystery which is touching your skin

6957
03:55:34,790 --> 03:55:32,080
right now

6958
03:55:35,510 --> 03:55:34,800
and you cannot escape it there are

6959
03:55:38,229 --> 03:55:35,520
things

6960
03:55:40,389 --> 03:55:38,239
that you would want to know and you

6961
03:55:42,550 --> 03:55:40,399
can't even articulate the question

6962
03:55:45,110 --> 03:55:42,560
and you're immersed in it it's hugging

6963
03:55:46,710 --> 03:55:45,120
you at all times whether you want it or

6964
03:55:47,750 --> 03:55:46,720
not it's right on the other side of your

6965
03:55:50,790 --> 03:55:47,760
skin

6966
03:55:54,550 --> 03:55:50,800
um it is what you are ultimately

6967
03:55:55,269 --> 03:55:54,560
so just relax don't take yourself too

6968
03:55:57,670 --> 03:55:55,279
seriously

6969
03:55:59,590 --> 03:55:57,680
what's going on is beyond what your

6970
03:56:02,630 --> 03:55:59,600
little human rational mind

6971
03:56:05,670 --> 03:56:02,640
can ever corral in the little

6972
03:56:07,670 --> 03:56:05,680
story um and and you gotta have

6973
03:56:08,950 --> 03:56:07,680
faith in in the true religious sense

6974
03:56:11,750 --> 03:56:08,960
which is

6975
03:56:14,389 --> 03:56:11,760
trust that that which you don't know and

6976
03:56:16,790 --> 03:56:14,399
you're immersed then all this mystery

6977
03:56:17,590 --> 03:56:16,800
is going somewhere worthwhile and if

6978
03:56:19,590 --> 03:56:17,600
it's not

6979
03:56:21,429 --> 03:56:19,600
there's nothing to lose so there's no

6980
03:56:22,309 --> 03:56:21,439
price to be paid for being wrong

6981
03:56:24,229 --> 03:56:22,319
regarding this

6982
03:56:26,150 --> 03:56:24,239
so he might as well have faith don't

6983
03:56:27,830 --> 03:56:26,160
take don't take yourself too seriously

6984
03:56:31,670 --> 03:56:27,840
and just have faith it will go the way

6985
03:56:34,550 --> 03:56:31,680
it will go then it will be fine

6986
03:56:35,910 --> 03:56:34,560
thank you even in that like you got to

6987
03:56:37,110 --> 03:56:35,920
put up some resistance but even in that

6988
03:56:38,229 --> 03:56:37,120
you have some conviction

6989
03:56:39,910 --> 03:56:38,239
you know what you're saying and you

6990
03:56:41,510 --> 03:56:39,920
believe it which means you have a

6991
03:56:43,030 --> 03:56:41,520
framework through which to interpret the

6992
03:56:45,269 --> 03:56:43,040
world even if that framework

6993
03:56:46,630 --> 03:56:45,279
has as a part of it that i can never

6994
03:56:48,550 --> 03:56:46,640
know or comprehend

6995
03:56:50,229 --> 03:56:48,560
the vast majority of it i think my

6996
03:56:50,950 --> 03:56:50,239
biggest knowledge is knowing what i

6997
03:56:52,710 --> 03:56:50,960
don't know

6998
03:56:54,790 --> 03:56:52,720
oh no not even that because not even

6999
03:56:58,150 --> 03:56:54,800
that i know is knowing how

7000
03:56:58,870 --> 03:56:58,160
much i don't know and and there is

7001
03:57:01,110 --> 03:56:58,880
freedom

7002
03:57:01,990 --> 03:57:01,120
in recognizing that because a lot of

7003
03:57:04,550 --> 03:57:02,000
anxiety

7004
03:57:05,269 --> 03:57:04,560
and nihilism has to do with a certain

7005
03:57:07,910 --> 03:57:05,279
narrative

7006
03:57:08,469 --> 03:57:07,920
about what things are and you think you

7007
03:57:10,389 --> 03:57:08,479
know them

7008
03:57:11,990 --> 03:57:10,399
and that's what's confining that's what

7009
03:57:14,150 --> 03:57:12,000
is so crushing

7010
03:57:15,990 --> 03:57:14,160
when you think you know and you think

7011
03:57:18,309 --> 03:57:16,000
the mystery is off the table

7012
03:57:19,910 --> 03:57:18,319
when you think that the air you're

7013
03:57:21,110 --> 03:57:19,920
breathing right now has been fully

7014
03:57:23,990 --> 03:57:21,120
explained

7015
03:57:24,950 --> 03:57:24,000
each molecule in the air you're

7016
03:57:28,870 --> 03:57:24,960
breathing

7017
03:57:32,070 --> 03:57:28,880
it is a mystery of unfathomable

7018
03:57:35,349 --> 03:57:32,080
depth and it's percolating

7019
03:57:38,150 --> 03:57:35,359
through your body right now so

7020
03:57:40,229 --> 03:57:38,160
the ego thinks it will find freedom by

7021
03:57:42,550 --> 03:57:40,239
controlling and knowing

7022
03:57:44,870 --> 03:57:42,560
while freedom is found in being aware of

7023
03:57:47,990 --> 03:57:44,880
how much you do not know

7024
03:57:49,590 --> 03:57:48,000
and allowing it to play out in other

7025
03:57:50,790 --> 03:57:49,600
words i'm not saying this because i know

7026
03:57:53,590 --> 03:57:50,800
a lot

7027
03:57:55,429 --> 03:57:53,600
i'm saying this because i am more aware

7028
03:57:57,030 --> 03:57:55,439
now of how much i don't know

7029
03:57:58,710 --> 03:57:57,040
than i was before i thought i knew a

7030
03:58:00,950 --> 03:57:58,720
whole bunch of stuff

7031
03:58:02,229 --> 03:58:00,960
now i know that what i think i knew what

7032
03:58:04,950 --> 03:58:02,239
i thought i know

7033
03:58:06,150 --> 03:58:04,960
sorry what i thought i knew is just

7034
03:58:09,429 --> 03:58:06,160
images

7035
03:58:11,590 --> 03:58:09,439
phantasms representations appearances

7036
03:58:13,830 --> 03:58:11,600
how things present themselves to me not

7037
03:58:16,550 --> 03:58:13,840
what they are in and of themselves

7038
03:58:18,550 --> 03:58:16,560
i've realized that what my sensorium

7039
03:58:21,429 --> 03:58:18,560
gives me is a dashboard

7040
03:58:22,309 --> 03:58:21,439
not a clear glass window in into what is

7041
03:58:24,790 --> 03:58:22,319
out there

7042
03:58:26,309 --> 03:58:24,800
and when you realize that every

7043
03:58:29,510 --> 03:58:26,319
lightning strike

7044
03:58:30,070 --> 03:58:29,520
is a mystery of cosmic proportions of a

7045
03:58:33,670 --> 03:58:30,080
divine

7046
03:58:36,710 --> 03:58:33,680
nature let alone quasars and black holes

7047
03:58:38,630 --> 03:58:36,720
it brings you to tears a dark cloud in

7048
03:58:42,150 --> 03:58:38,640
the sky is enough to

7049
03:58:44,070 --> 03:58:42,160
to move you to to to use a christian

7050
03:58:49,189 --> 03:58:44,080
language to throw yourselves to your

7051
03:58:51,670 --> 03:58:49,199
knees and and thank god for existence

7052
03:58:52,950 --> 03:58:51,680
this realization of the unfathomable

7053
03:58:56,870 --> 03:58:52,960
mystery

7054
03:59:03,349 --> 03:58:59,990
caressing you for lack of a better word

7055
03:59:06,790 --> 03:59:03,359
at all times it is that unknowing that

7056
03:59:09,110 --> 03:59:06,800
lack of control that acceptance of

7057
03:59:11,030 --> 03:59:09,120
our slavery condition as natural

7058
03:59:12,309 --> 03:59:11,040
processes that don't really exist but

7059
03:59:15,030 --> 03:59:12,319
through which nature

7060
03:59:17,910 --> 03:59:15,040
expresses something it is this unknowing

7061
03:59:21,189 --> 03:59:17,920
lack of control and acceptance that

7062
03:59:23,750 --> 03:59:21,199
at least for me that has bought me some

7063
03:59:25,590 --> 03:59:23,760
temporary freedom for all i know after

7064
03:59:27,269 --> 03:59:25,600
we

7065
03:59:30,070 --> 03:59:27,279
this conversation i will get a phone

7066
03:59:31,910 --> 03:59:30,080
call that will destroy my life

7067
03:59:33,510 --> 03:59:31,920
and i will and i will want to kill

7068
03:59:34,389 --> 03:59:33,520
myself for all you know that will be the

7069
03:59:36,469 --> 03:59:34,399
case but you know

7070
03:59:37,590 --> 03:59:36,479
right now that's my freedom why did you

7071
03:59:38,710 --> 03:59:37,600
laugh right there when you said for all

7072
03:59:40,309 --> 03:59:38,720
i know i'll get a phone call and i'll

7073
03:59:41,670 --> 03:59:40,319
destroy my life and then you like

7074
03:59:43,510 --> 03:59:41,680
now freud would say that that's

7075
03:59:45,189 --> 03:59:43,520
indicative of something unconscious but

7076
03:59:46,550 --> 03:59:45,199
i'm sure that that's i'm reading too

7077
03:59:47,910 --> 03:59:46,560
much into it like i'm i'm

7078
03:59:51,590 --> 03:59:47,920
thinking too much because i'm curious it

7079
03:59:54,710 --> 03:59:51,600
was irony it's the irony of knowing that

7080
03:59:56,469 --> 03:59:54,720
morals are human constructs just like

7081
03:59:58,229 --> 03:59:56,479
our sense of fairness

7082
03:59:59,670 --> 03:59:58,239
that in nature there is no such thing as

7083
04:00:01,510 --> 03:59:59,680
justice and fairness

7084
04:00:02,710 --> 04:00:01,520
i'm just such a selfish person bernard

7085
04:00:04,469 --> 04:00:02,720
like it's so

7086
04:00:05,990 --> 04:00:04,479
no i mean like i i'm almost like

7087
04:00:09,349 --> 04:00:06,000
confessing like if it's a

7088
04:00:10,150 --> 04:00:09,359
like if you're a priest i i i wish i had

7089
04:00:11,750 --> 04:00:10,160
the peace that

7090
04:00:13,670 --> 04:00:11,760
now see what's so tricky about this is

7091
04:00:17,429 --> 04:00:13,680
that

7092
04:00:19,510 --> 04:00:17,439
i'm also being overly hard on myself

7093
04:00:21,910 --> 04:00:19,520
partly because i want to just express

7094
04:00:22,870 --> 04:00:21,920
the worst parts worst parts of me

7095
04:00:25,189 --> 04:00:22,880
because i'm

7096
04:00:26,870 --> 04:00:25,199
somewhat afraid of of seeming arrogant

7097
04:00:31,349 --> 04:00:26,880
and expressing the parts of me that i

7098
04:00:34,469 --> 04:00:31,359
i find that i'm proud of so for example

7099
04:00:36,309 --> 04:00:34,479
each year of my life since i was 26

7100
04:00:37,590 --> 04:00:36,319
has just gotten progressively better and

7101
04:00:40,469 --> 04:00:37,600
better and better and i'm married

7102
04:00:40,710 --> 04:00:40,479
and i love my life and i find like every

7103
04:00:56,070 --> 04:00:40,720
i

7104
04:00:59,429 --> 04:00:56,080
my clean apartment

7105
04:01:00,870 --> 04:00:59,439
like my clean condo super clean i have

7106
04:01:02,630 --> 04:01:00,880
a taxi a phobia so i don't like

7107
04:01:04,870 --> 04:01:02,640
disorderliness or un

7108
04:01:05,750 --> 04:01:04,880
tidiness and everything's in its own

7109
04:01:07,830 --> 04:01:05,760
place i have a

7110
04:01:10,870 --> 04:01:07,840
i have a toyota corolla like a 2021

7111
04:01:12,150 --> 04:01:10,880
hybrid toyota i love my toyota corolla

7112
04:01:14,070 --> 04:01:12,160
to some people it's like oh who cares

7113
04:01:16,150 --> 04:01:14,080
about that oh i love it love

7114
04:01:18,389 --> 04:01:16,160
love everything about my life i feel

7115
04:01:20,710 --> 04:01:18,399
like almost each moment is imbued with

7116
04:01:22,389 --> 04:01:20,720
such meaning

7117
04:01:25,030 --> 04:01:22,399
so when i say that i'm a selfish person

7118
04:01:28,070 --> 04:01:25,040
and i and i express that

7119
04:01:31,189 --> 04:01:28,080
i am lacking in some way i i

7120
04:01:34,229 --> 04:01:31,199
i'm not falling apart but i i think i

7121
04:01:34,790 --> 04:01:34,239
come across or i let that part of me be

7122
04:01:38,550 --> 04:01:34,800
seen

7123
04:01:40,229 --> 04:01:38,560
more readily because i'm afraid

7124
04:01:41,830 --> 04:01:40,239
of seeming like i have it all together

7125
04:01:43,269 --> 04:01:41,840
and seeming arrogant and i'm

7126
04:01:46,870 --> 04:01:43,279
there's a part of me that's so afraid of

7127
04:01:47,189 --> 04:01:46,880
that and i well i'm just confessing i

7128
04:01:49,189 --> 04:01:47,199
don't

7129
04:01:50,469 --> 04:01:49,199
have a question formulated around that

7130
04:01:52,309 --> 04:01:50,479
you're being uh

7131
04:01:54,070 --> 04:01:52,319
human and you said that yes i take

7132
04:01:57,670 --> 04:01:54,080
myself too seriously so like

7133
04:01:59,830 --> 04:01:57,680
okay i don't think i do

7134
04:02:01,269 --> 04:01:59,840
but i'm sure i do because you're wiser

7135
04:02:04,309 --> 04:02:01,279
than i am and

7136
04:02:05,670 --> 04:02:04,319
you must see it and so if

7137
04:02:07,189 --> 04:02:05,680
we're worried about what other people

7138
04:02:09,189 --> 04:02:07,199
think of you you're taking yourself too

7139
04:02:11,189 --> 04:02:09,199
seriously

7140
04:02:12,630 --> 04:02:11,199
if it would destroy your life to be

7141
04:02:15,269 --> 04:02:12,640
humiliated in public

7142
04:02:16,710 --> 04:02:15,279
you're taking yourself too seriously

7143
04:02:19,189 --> 04:02:16,720
because for nature

7144
04:02:21,030 --> 04:02:19,199
it's just a natural process unfolding

7145
04:02:22,150 --> 04:02:21,040
everything else is a narrative we place

7146
04:02:25,590 --> 04:02:22,160
on it

7147
04:02:27,990 --> 04:02:25,600
a value-based judgment of our own

7148
04:02:29,670 --> 04:02:28,000
invention and that that that's why that

7149
04:02:32,950 --> 04:02:29,680
little cynic

7150
04:02:35,030 --> 04:02:32,960
yeah cynical ironic love i gave

7151
04:02:36,550 --> 04:02:35,040
because you know when you get to the

7152
04:02:38,710 --> 04:02:36,560
point where i am

7153
04:02:40,309 --> 04:02:38,720
there is a temptation to say i've went

7154
04:02:42,229 --> 04:02:40,319
i've gone through

7155
04:02:44,630 --> 04:02:42,239
now i've arrived in a place of peace it

7156
04:02:45,110 --> 04:02:44,640
would be unfair if this were taken from

7157
04:02:47,750 --> 04:02:45,120
me

7158
04:02:48,389 --> 04:02:47,760
now and then the next part is yeah it's

7159
04:02:50,710 --> 04:02:48,399
okay

7160
04:02:52,229 --> 04:02:50,720
it's a cosmic giggle you know it would

7161
04:02:54,150 --> 04:02:52,239
be taken from you next

7162
04:02:55,429 --> 04:02:54,160
second if that's how nature wants to

7163
04:02:57,670 --> 04:02:55,439
unfolding to unfold

7164
04:02:58,790 --> 04:02:57,680
there is no such thing as justice there

7165
04:03:01,189 --> 04:02:58,800
is only

7166
04:03:02,630 --> 04:03:01,199
a conceptualization of people who take

7167
04:03:03,990 --> 04:03:02,640
themselves too seriously now that

7168
04:03:04,630 --> 04:03:04,000
doesn't mean that i want to defend

7169
04:03:06,309 --> 04:03:04,640
myself

7170
04:03:10,150 --> 04:03:06,319
or my girlfriend if somebody threatens

7171
04:03:13,590 --> 04:03:10,160
her safety i will kill to defend her

7172
04:03:16,150 --> 04:03:13,600
so i will act to preserve my

7173
04:03:17,349 --> 04:03:16,160
functional status i will i will act to

7174
04:03:20,389 --> 04:03:17,359
preserve my life

7175
04:03:22,550 --> 04:03:20,399
my security my comfort but that too

7176
04:03:24,229 --> 04:03:22,560
is a natural process i will not be doing

7177
04:03:27,990 --> 04:03:24,239
that out of some sense of

7178
04:03:30,070 --> 04:03:28,000
intrinsic cosmic justice and god as a

7179
04:03:30,870 --> 04:03:30,080
judge that will you know pass judgment

7180
04:03:32,389 --> 04:03:30,880
fairly

7181
04:03:34,710 --> 04:03:32,399
across all involved i don't think that's

7182
04:03:38,150 --> 04:03:34,720
what's going on i think nature can be

7183
04:03:41,030 --> 04:03:38,160
just as cruel as an ironic as

7184
04:03:41,830 --> 04:03:41,040
any human being can so that that's why i

7185
04:03:44,229 --> 04:03:41,840
had that

7186
04:03:45,590 --> 04:03:44,239
little ironic giggle because i'm in a

7187
04:03:48,229 --> 04:03:45,600
good place right now but i'm

7188
04:03:48,630 --> 04:03:48,239
keenly aware the carpet can be pulled

7189
04:03:51,990 --> 04:03:48,640
out

7190
04:03:54,229 --> 04:03:52,000
of my feet

7191
04:03:56,070 --> 04:03:54,239
30 seconds from now i may get the phone

7192
04:03:57,910 --> 04:03:56,080
call you know destroy my world

7193
04:04:00,070 --> 04:03:57,920
you have such a great great great great

7194
04:04:02,550 --> 04:04:00,080
outlook and

7195
04:04:03,269 --> 04:04:02,560
see for me i've been so humiliated and

7196
04:04:05,670 --> 04:04:03,279
humbled

7197
04:04:06,950 --> 04:04:05,680
and i don't i don't particularly mind

7198
04:04:09,750 --> 04:04:06,960
public humiliation

7199
04:04:11,189 --> 04:04:09,760
and i've done enough self-development to

7200
04:04:12,710 --> 04:04:11,199
overcome some of that

7201
04:04:14,309 --> 04:04:12,720
where you just do push-ups on the street

7202
04:04:15,670 --> 04:04:14,319
or you yell for no reason or whatever it

7203
04:04:18,710 --> 04:04:15,680
may be

7204
04:04:19,349 --> 04:04:18,720
but maybe a part of my background

7205
04:04:21,269 --> 04:04:19,359
anxiety

7206
04:04:23,030 --> 04:04:21,279
is the fact that i either one feel bad

7207
04:04:23,910 --> 04:04:23,040
that i have such a great great great

7208
04:04:26,710 --> 04:04:23,920
great great

7209
04:04:27,429 --> 04:04:26,720
life and that not only is there so much

7210
04:04:31,510 --> 04:04:27,439
suffering but

7211
04:04:33,910 --> 04:04:31,520
it could be else and at any moment

7212
04:04:34,550 --> 04:04:33,920
i know that there were other points in

7213
04:04:35,750 --> 04:04:34,560
my life where

7214
04:04:38,229 --> 04:04:35,760
right when i thought i had it figured

7215
04:04:40,630 --> 04:04:38,239
out is when it all falls apart

7216
04:04:41,750 --> 04:04:40,640
and so maybe i'm wondering do i have it

7217
04:04:44,630 --> 04:04:41,760
too good

7218
04:04:46,309 --> 04:04:44,640
and then i i'm wondering like i might

7219
04:04:47,990 --> 04:04:46,319
just think i'm thinking myself into my

7220
04:04:48,710 --> 04:04:48,000
own suffering but i'm not suffering that

7221
04:04:52,229 --> 04:04:48,720
much like i'm

7222
04:04:55,429 --> 04:04:52,239
i'm way overblowing it

7223
04:04:56,309 --> 04:04:55,439
maybe i want a question we should honor

7224
04:04:57,990 --> 04:04:56,319
our suffering

7225
04:04:59,429 --> 04:04:58,000
even if you say well other people have

7226
04:05:01,030 --> 04:04:59,439
it a lot worse than me and

7227
04:05:03,269 --> 04:05:01,040
and i'm saying this because i'm guilty

7228
04:05:04,870 --> 04:05:03,279
of it all the time i always tell myself

7229
04:05:06,150 --> 04:05:04,880
well my suffering is nothing compared to

7230
04:05:07,750 --> 04:05:06,160
the suffering syria

7231
04:05:09,510 --> 04:05:07,760
to the sufferings bangladesh to the

7232
04:05:11,269 --> 04:05:09,520
suffering in africa but

7233
04:05:12,550 --> 04:05:11,279
in that sense i don't do justice to

7234
04:05:15,590 --> 04:05:12,560
myself because you know

7235
04:05:18,150 --> 04:05:15,600
for good or bad reason i do suffer

7236
04:05:19,189 --> 04:05:18,160
so yeah i wouldn't go there but look the

7237
04:05:23,429 --> 04:05:19,199
the most

7238
04:05:25,990 --> 04:05:23,439
taking yourself too seriously is

7239
04:05:29,429 --> 04:05:26,000
is when you tell yourself i take

7240
04:05:31,510 --> 04:05:29,439
myself too seriously and i shouldn't

7241
04:05:32,630 --> 04:05:31,520
that's the worst instance of taking

7242
04:05:34,150 --> 04:05:32,640
yourself too seriously

7243
04:05:36,710 --> 04:05:34,160
because if you don't take yourself too

7244
04:05:38,950 --> 04:05:36,720
seriously you are kind towards yourself

7245
04:05:41,670 --> 04:05:38,960
it is taking yourself too seriously to

7246
04:05:43,990 --> 04:05:41,680
say i'm taking myself too seriously yeah

7247
04:05:45,429 --> 04:05:44,000
yeah okay okay please explain because

7248
04:05:47,110 --> 04:05:45,439
you told me that so now if i was to

7249
04:05:49,349 --> 04:05:47,120
listen to it are you telling myself

7250
04:05:51,269 --> 04:05:49,359
because if you think if you think it's

7251
04:05:52,870 --> 04:05:51,279
so important

7252
04:05:54,790 --> 04:05:52,880
that you shouldn't take yourself so

7253
04:05:56,229 --> 04:05:54,800
seriously

7254
04:05:57,990 --> 04:05:56,239
then you are taking yourself too

7255
04:06:00,469 --> 04:05:58,000
seriously otherwise you would say

7256
04:06:01,510 --> 04:06:00,479
yeah okay i'm taking myself so seriously

7257
04:06:04,229 --> 04:06:01,520
it's what is

7258
04:06:04,550 --> 04:06:04,239
right i take myself too seriously yeah

7259
04:06:06,790 --> 04:06:04,560
yeah

7260
04:06:07,990 --> 04:06:06,800
okay man you have something you're like

7261
04:06:09,990 --> 04:06:08,000
oh

7262
04:06:11,590 --> 04:06:10,000
i'm taking myself too seriously and i

7263
04:06:13,110 --> 04:06:11,600
shouldn't i have to do something about

7264
04:06:16,710 --> 04:06:13,120
it what do you think that is

7265
04:06:18,309 --> 04:06:16,720
it's you taking yourself extra seriously

7266
04:06:20,870 --> 04:06:18,319
okay so not taking yourself too

7267
04:06:23,910 --> 04:06:20,880
seriously entails doesn't imply it

7268
04:06:25,590 --> 04:06:23,920
entails being kind to yourself giving

7269
04:06:27,590 --> 04:06:25,600
yourself a pass

7270
04:06:29,349 --> 04:06:27,600
forgiving you know yeah yeah you're much

7271
04:06:31,349 --> 04:06:29,359
more much more wise

7272
04:06:32,389 --> 04:06:31,359
than i and i know you got to go and i'm

7273
04:06:35,590 --> 04:06:32,399
sorry i keep you

7274
04:06:38,950 --> 04:06:36,710
and i want to give you a piece of

7275
04:06:40,389 --> 04:06:38,960
imagery i was watching the da vinci code

7276
04:06:41,990 --> 04:06:40,399
and the first one there's this guy you

7277
04:06:43,269 --> 04:06:42,000
look like neil patrick's harris harris

7278
04:06:46,630 --> 04:06:43,279
neil patrick harris he had

7279
04:06:48,229 --> 04:06:46,640
he's like pale skinned white okay and

7280
04:06:49,429 --> 04:06:48,239
he was just praying yeah okay he's

7281
04:06:50,870 --> 04:06:49,439
praying he's praying and he's taking a

7282
04:06:53,750 --> 04:06:50,880
whip and chastising himself

7283
04:06:55,189 --> 04:06:53,760
like self-mortification and then he's

7284
04:06:57,429 --> 04:06:55,199
portrayed as the crazy one

7285
04:06:58,389 --> 04:06:57,439
because of that and i remember watching

7286
04:07:00,229 --> 04:06:58,399
that movie and thinking

7287
04:07:01,590 --> 04:07:00,239
no we're the crazy ones because we're

7288
04:07:04,469 --> 04:07:01,600
not taking life seriously

7289
04:07:05,510 --> 04:07:04,479
this guy is atoning for each sin

7290
04:07:08,710 --> 04:07:05,520
painfully and

7291
04:07:11,269 --> 04:07:08,720
specifically and i and i'm like that's

7292
04:07:11,910 --> 04:07:11,279
like i wish i was as courageous as that

7293
04:07:12,870 --> 04:07:11,920
now

7294
04:07:14,870 --> 04:07:12,880
you're probably hearing that and

7295
04:07:16,389 --> 04:07:14,880
thinking i'm i'm worshiping the wrong

7296
04:07:18,630 --> 04:07:16,399
god in a sense

7297
04:07:21,349 --> 04:07:18,640
i think there is a crucial distinction

7298
04:07:24,790 --> 04:07:21,359
between taking yourself too seriously

7299
04:07:27,189 --> 04:07:24,800
and taking life seriously

7300
04:07:29,510 --> 04:07:27,199
i wouldn't do the former but i

7301
04:07:31,349 --> 04:07:29,520
absolutely recommend the latter

7302
04:07:33,429 --> 04:07:31,359
taking yourself too seriously is not

7303
04:07:36,550 --> 04:07:33,439
helpful neither to nature

7304
04:07:38,950 --> 04:07:36,560
nor to what you think you are taking

7305
04:07:42,070 --> 04:07:38,960
life seriously is a whole other game

7306
04:07:44,309 --> 04:07:42,080
it's very important

7307
04:07:45,830 --> 04:07:44,319
in some sense you can only take life

7308
04:07:48,070 --> 04:07:45,840
seriously if you don't take

7309
04:07:50,790 --> 04:07:48,080
yourself too seriously because if

7310
04:07:52,790 --> 04:07:50,800
yourself consumes life

7311
04:07:54,229 --> 04:07:52,800
then you're not taking life seriously

7312
04:07:57,830 --> 04:07:54,239
life is something that happens

7313
04:08:01,590 --> 04:07:57,840
through you if you make it all about

7314
04:08:03,910 --> 04:08:01,600
you you're not making it about life

7315
04:08:05,110 --> 04:08:03,920
do you see what i mean okay see tony

7316
04:08:06,229 --> 04:08:05,120
robbins has this phrase

7317
04:08:07,750 --> 04:08:06,239
life is not happening to you it's

7318
04:08:08,790 --> 04:08:07,760
happening for you but then you've just

7319
04:08:10,630 --> 04:08:08,800
put a twist on that

7320
04:08:11,830 --> 04:08:10,640
or an ancient twist but you're saying

7321
04:08:13,429 --> 04:08:11,840
it's not happening to you nor is it

7322
04:08:16,870 --> 04:08:13,439
happening for you it's happening through

7323
04:08:20,469 --> 04:08:16,880
you yeah tony robbins and and

7324
04:08:22,469 --> 04:08:20,479
a lot of the self self-help

7325
04:08:23,910 --> 04:08:22,479
literature and a lot of the new age and

7326
04:08:26,070 --> 04:08:23,920
spiritual literature

7327
04:08:27,670 --> 04:08:26,080
it's all about consolation by creating

7328
04:08:29,269 --> 04:08:27,680
the illusion that your ego

7329
04:08:30,950 --> 04:08:29,279
is in control of the world and that the

7330
04:08:32,790 --> 04:08:30,960
universe is some kind of menu

7331
04:08:34,309 --> 04:08:32,800
and you can just place your order and if

7332
04:08:35,670 --> 04:08:34,319
you place your order in just the right

7333
04:08:37,030 --> 04:08:35,680
way by thinking the right thoughts and

7334
04:08:39,429 --> 04:08:37,040
applying the right techniques then you

7335
04:08:43,670 --> 04:08:39,439
get everything your ego wants

7336
04:08:46,790 --> 04:08:43,680
i personally think that's

7337
04:08:49,590 --> 04:08:46,800
utter complete and unhelpful

7338
04:08:50,870 --> 04:08:49,600
the meaning um i don't think

7339
04:08:51,510 --> 04:08:50,880
that's the way to go it's destructive

7340
04:08:53,990 --> 04:08:51,520
too not just

7341
04:08:54,550 --> 04:08:54,000
destructive yeah yeah it elevates the

7342
04:08:56,550 --> 04:08:54,560
ego

7343
04:08:58,229 --> 04:08:56,560
to to the position of king of an

7344
04:09:00,149 --> 04:08:58,239
illusory reality

7345
04:09:01,349 --> 04:09:00,159
and it will hurt you ultimately although

7346
04:09:02,870 --> 04:09:01,359
it may give you a sense a

7347
04:09:04,389 --> 04:09:02,880
sense of comfort in the beginning short

7348
04:09:06,630 --> 04:09:04,399
term right and it will wreck the planet

7349
04:09:09,910 --> 04:09:06,640
if everybody tries to do that

7350
04:09:11,349 --> 04:09:09,920
so i look look when i told you i don't

7351
04:09:13,349 --> 04:09:11,359
don't take yourself too seriously i

7352
04:09:14,229 --> 04:09:13,359
didn't mean not to take life seriously

7353
04:09:16,229 --> 04:09:14,239
on the contrary

7354
04:09:18,550 --> 04:09:16,239
i think life is to be taken very

7355
04:09:21,189 --> 04:09:18,560
seriously and the way to go about it

7356
04:09:23,030 --> 04:09:21,199
is to let it flow through you and not

7357
04:09:28,070 --> 04:09:23,040
try to wrestle control of it and make it

7358
04:09:29,510 --> 04:09:28,080
about yourself

7359
04:09:31,189 --> 04:09:29,520
are just a few questions from the

7360
04:09:32,389 --> 04:09:31,199
audience and i want to ask you them you

7361
04:09:33,990 --> 04:09:32,399
could just answer them shortly i know

7362
04:09:35,910 --> 04:09:34,000
you got a question we've gone so far

7363
04:09:37,349 --> 04:09:35,920
so okay i might as well just a few more

7364
04:09:40,469 --> 04:09:37,359
minutes right khalil

7365
04:09:42,950 --> 04:09:40,479
and danny phd islamic studies that's

7366
04:09:44,870 --> 04:09:42,960
his username says dr castro if mind at

7367
04:09:47,189 --> 04:09:44,880
large is active evolving and excited as

7368
04:09:48,790 --> 04:09:47,199
reflected in natural processes

7369
04:09:51,590 --> 04:09:48,800
doesn't your model still need to account

7370
04:09:55,590 --> 04:09:51,600
for a higher level explanation or cause

7371
04:09:58,950 --> 04:09:57,349
can you repeat the question yeah i'm not

7372
04:09:59,990 --> 04:09:58,960
sure i understood it so i copy and

7373
04:10:01,510 --> 04:10:00,000
pasted it and

7374
04:10:03,910 --> 04:10:01,520
thought maybe when i read it out loud it

7375
04:10:05,590 --> 04:10:03,920
would make sense dr castro

7376
04:10:07,429 --> 04:10:05,600
if life is evolving if it's active it's

7377
04:10:08,149 --> 04:10:07,439
excited as reflected in natural

7378
04:10:11,149 --> 04:10:08,159
processes

7379
04:10:14,149 --> 04:10:11,159
doesn't your model still need to account

7380
04:10:17,830 --> 04:10:14,159
for a higher

7381
04:10:19,510 --> 04:10:17,840
yeah i don't think so i think

7382
04:10:21,910 --> 04:10:19,520
life is doing what it's doing or the

7383
04:10:23,910 --> 04:10:21,920
universe is doing what it's doing

7384
04:10:25,510 --> 04:10:23,920
because it is what it is it's an

7385
04:10:27,030 --> 04:10:25,520
implication from identity what the

7386
04:10:30,309 --> 04:10:27,040
universe is

7387
04:10:33,510 --> 04:10:30,319
determines uh how it will behave

7388
04:10:35,030 --> 04:10:33,520
um so it's doing what it's doing because

7389
04:10:36,950 --> 04:10:35,040
it is what it is

7390
04:10:38,070 --> 04:10:36,960
and we can model that behavior and

7391
04:10:40,070 --> 04:10:38,080
predict it

7392
04:10:42,630 --> 04:10:40,080
through mathematical equations and

7393
04:10:45,429 --> 04:10:42,640
science and all that

7394
04:10:48,070 --> 04:10:45,439
but these are models they are not the

7395
04:10:48,950 --> 04:10:48,080
reason or the explanation or the impetus

7396
04:10:51,590 --> 04:10:48,960
behind

7397
04:10:52,149 --> 04:10:51,600
the behavior i think the impetus of the

7398
04:10:54,950 --> 04:10:52,159
behavior

7399
04:10:56,790 --> 04:10:54,960
is what mind is and if i and i i don't

7400
04:10:57,670 --> 04:10:56,800
really think we need more than that in a

7401
04:10:59,670 --> 04:10:57,680
sense it's

7402
04:11:00,870 --> 04:10:59,680
trying to push reduction beyond where it

7403
04:11:03,910 --> 04:11:00,880
needs to go

7404
04:11:06,229 --> 04:11:03,920
uh once you get to what the universe is

7405
04:11:07,670 --> 04:11:06,239
what else do we need to make sense of

7406
04:11:09,030 --> 04:11:07,680
its behavior it's behaving the way

7407
04:11:10,389 --> 04:11:09,040
that's because it is what it is

7408
04:11:12,070 --> 04:11:10,399
and we can model that behavior and

7409
04:11:15,030 --> 04:11:12,080
predict that's all fine

7410
04:11:15,830 --> 04:11:15,040
now if the intuition behind the question

7411
04:11:18,389 --> 04:11:15,840
is that

7412
04:11:19,429 --> 04:11:18,399
there has to be some grander higher

7413
04:11:22,710 --> 04:11:19,439
level plan

7414
04:11:25,830 --> 04:11:22,720
some some carefully

7415
04:11:29,990 --> 04:11:25,840
thought out fine tuning

7416
04:11:32,070 --> 04:11:30,000
or or carefully thought out action

7417
04:11:34,229 --> 04:11:32,080
i don't think that needs to be the case

7418
04:11:36,550 --> 04:11:34,239
i think the unfolding or the the

7419
04:11:38,550 --> 04:11:36,560
evolution can be purely instinctive

7420
04:11:40,870 --> 04:11:38,560
driven by archetypes and archetypes are

7421
04:11:44,229 --> 04:11:40,880
just reflections of what the universe is

7422
04:11:44,790 --> 04:11:44,239
um the only point that shuns me a little

7423
04:11:47,510 --> 04:11:44,800
bit

7424
04:11:50,070 --> 04:11:47,520
is the fine tuning of the universal

7425
04:11:54,950 --> 04:11:50,080
constants which which suggests

7426
04:11:57,269 --> 04:11:54,960
a ridiculously fine level of planning

7427
04:11:58,469 --> 04:11:57,279
if interpreted at face value why are the

7428
04:12:02,309 --> 04:11:58,479
universal constants

7429
04:12:05,590 --> 04:12:02,319
so exquisitely fine-tuning fine-tuned

7430
04:12:08,070 --> 04:12:05,600
to the rise of complexity and life

7431
04:12:10,149 --> 04:12:08,080
i don't have an answer to that but the

7432
04:12:10,950 --> 04:12:10,159
most promising avenue to make sense of

7433
04:12:15,750 --> 04:12:10,960
that

7434
04:12:18,389 --> 04:12:15,760
work of a physicist called marcus

7435
04:12:19,590 --> 04:12:18,399
miller from the austrian academy of

7436
04:12:22,550 --> 04:12:19,600
sciences

7437
04:12:24,149 --> 04:12:22,560
um we covered his work a lot on the

7438
04:12:26,870 --> 04:12:24,159
essentia foundation website

7439
04:12:28,229 --> 04:12:26,880
recently and basically what he's saying

7440
04:12:31,670 --> 04:12:28,239
is that

7441
04:12:33,910 --> 04:12:31,680
from he's a quantum physicist and um his

7442
04:12:35,750 --> 04:12:33,920
his take on quantum physics is that the

7443
04:12:38,070 --> 04:12:35,760
physical world

7444
04:12:38,950 --> 04:12:38,080
is actually created from a first person

7445
04:12:42,469 --> 04:12:38,960
perspective

7446
04:12:46,149 --> 04:12:42,479
um that we sort of inferentially

7447
04:12:49,590 --> 04:12:46,159
build it and then he has a mathematical

7448
04:12:52,309 --> 04:12:49,600
argument that if that's what's going on

7449
04:12:53,349 --> 04:12:52,319
then we would automatically tend to

7450
04:12:56,229 --> 04:12:53,359
infer

7451
04:12:57,830 --> 04:12:56,239
physical worlds that are consistent with

7452
04:13:00,710 --> 04:12:57,840
each other's in other words you would

7453
04:13:02,550 --> 04:13:00,720
construct a personal physical world

7454
04:13:04,229 --> 04:13:02,560
of your own i would construct one for

7455
04:13:06,550 --> 04:13:04,239
myself through infer

7456
04:13:07,670 --> 04:13:06,560
through inference and they would

7457
04:13:09,429 --> 04:13:07,680
necessarily

7458
04:13:10,950 --> 04:13:09,439
be consistent with one another your

7459
04:13:11,510 --> 04:13:10,960
world would be more or less the same as

7460
04:13:13,349 --> 04:13:11,520
mine

7461
04:13:15,269 --> 04:13:13,359
because of the dynamics of the

7462
04:13:16,710 --> 04:13:15,279
inferential processes going on

7463
04:13:18,309 --> 04:13:16,720
so basically what he's saying is that

7464
04:13:20,070 --> 04:13:18,319
the fine tuning of the universal

7465
04:13:21,510 --> 04:13:20,080
constant

7466
04:13:23,510 --> 04:13:21,520
that's my interpretation of what he's

7467
04:13:25,510 --> 04:13:23,520
saying i asked him the question directly

7468
04:13:27,349 --> 04:13:25,520
and he said he hadn't thought about it

7469
04:13:28,870 --> 04:13:27,359
yet so i don't want to put these words

7470
04:13:30,710 --> 04:13:28,880
in his mouth

7471
04:13:32,309 --> 04:13:30,720
my interpretation of what he is doing is

7472
04:13:34,630 --> 04:13:32,319
that if

7473
04:13:35,429 --> 04:13:34,640
physics arises from a first person

7474
04:13:37,590 --> 04:13:35,439
perspective

7475
04:13:38,870 --> 04:13:37,600
in other words if the physical world is

7476
04:13:41,670 --> 04:13:38,880
emergent

7477
04:13:43,030 --> 04:13:41,680
and not absolute which is what quantum

7478
04:13:44,550 --> 04:13:43,040
physics is suggesting more than

7479
04:13:47,590 --> 04:13:44,560
suggesting right now

7480
04:13:50,870 --> 04:13:47,600
um then the fact that

7481
04:13:54,070 --> 04:13:50,880
the universal constants are fine-tuned

7482
04:13:54,950 --> 04:13:54,080
are either are simply a consequence of

7483
04:13:57,110 --> 04:13:54,960
the fact that we

7484
04:13:59,189 --> 04:13:57,120
are inferring the physical world so we

7485
04:14:00,950 --> 04:13:59,199
would necessarily infer a physical world

7486
04:14:02,950 --> 04:14:00,960
that accounts for our existence

7487
04:14:04,790 --> 04:14:02,960
because we are the ones inferring it and

7488
04:14:06,469 --> 04:14:04,800
therefore the universal constants would

7489
04:14:08,149 --> 04:14:06,479
necessarily be fine-tuned

7490
04:14:10,950 --> 04:14:08,159
because without it we couldn't account

7491
04:14:13,030 --> 04:14:10,960
for our existence so we wouldn't infer

7492
04:14:15,429 --> 04:14:13,040
that it sounds like that topic principle

7493
04:14:17,269 --> 04:14:15,439
it's a it's uh

7494
04:14:18,870 --> 04:14:17,279
it's not quite the entropic principle

7495
04:14:20,469 --> 04:14:18,880
but i understand that uh

7496
04:14:22,389 --> 04:14:20,479
at first sight it's almost like we're

7497
04:14:22,870 --> 04:14:22,399
giving birth to a specific world rather

7498
04:14:24,309 --> 04:14:22,880
than

7499
04:14:25,510 --> 04:14:24,319
there are a variety of worlds and we're

7500
04:14:26,550 --> 04:14:25,520
in the only one that yeah we could

7501
04:14:28,870 --> 04:14:26,560
comprehend okay

7502
04:14:30,149 --> 04:14:28,880
yes so he's not saying he's not adhering

7503
04:14:32,149 --> 04:14:30,159
to solipsism

7504
04:14:33,510 --> 04:14:32,159
he admits that you have a conscience in

7505
04:14:36,070 --> 04:14:33,520
the life i do and

7506
04:14:38,630 --> 04:14:36,080
everybody else does he's not a solipsist

7507
04:14:41,030 --> 04:14:38,640
all he's saying is that

7508
04:14:41,750 --> 04:14:41,040
the physical world not all possible

7509
04:14:44,790 --> 04:14:41,760
worlds but

7510
04:14:48,149 --> 04:14:44,800
the physical world arises

7511
04:14:50,790 --> 04:14:48,159
through an inferential process we

7512
04:14:52,309 --> 04:14:50,800
infer what the physical world is in

7513
04:14:55,429 --> 04:14:52,319
order to account for our

7514
04:14:58,229 --> 04:14:55,439
own existence and if that happens

7515
04:15:00,149 --> 04:14:58,239
then mathematically you can prove that

7516
04:15:01,510 --> 04:15:00,159
we would all end up inferring the same

7517
04:15:02,870 --> 04:15:01,520
physical world more or less

7518
04:15:04,710 --> 04:15:02,880
absolutely interesting so i'll look into

7519
04:15:07,910 --> 04:15:04,720
that marcus miller

7520
04:15:09,429 --> 04:15:07,920
yeah great okay plastic pairs says

7521
04:15:11,590 --> 04:15:09,439
hell yeah right up my alley thanks for

7522
04:15:13,590 --> 04:15:11,600
getting bernardo on the show

7523
04:15:15,030 --> 04:15:13,600
if consciousness is beyond localization

7524
04:15:17,590 --> 04:15:15,040
does that imply that the brain is like a

7525
04:15:19,429 --> 04:15:17,600
radio tuner

7526
04:15:21,510 --> 04:15:19,439
look i think the radio metaphor is

7527
04:15:23,189 --> 04:15:21,520
useful if you're coming from a dualist

7528
04:15:24,630 --> 04:15:23,199
background or a pure materialist

7529
04:15:27,030 --> 04:15:24,640
background it helps you

7530
04:15:27,750 --> 04:15:27,040
think about the issues we are talking

7531
04:15:29,349 --> 04:15:27,760
about

7532
04:15:31,269 --> 04:15:29,359
i don't think it is ultimately true

7533
04:15:32,630 --> 04:15:31,279
though because it's a duelist metaphor

7534
04:15:34,389 --> 04:15:32,640
there is the signal and there is the

7535
04:15:36,389 --> 04:15:34,399
tuner or

7536
04:15:37,750 --> 04:15:36,399
and they are separate things like if if

7537
04:15:39,429 --> 04:15:37,760
the brain is a filter

7538
04:15:41,349 --> 04:15:39,439
then the brain itself cannot be made of

7539
04:15:43,189 --> 04:15:41,359
consciousness otherwise you know

7540
04:15:45,269 --> 04:15:43,199
can you talk about a coffee filter made

7541
04:15:46,070 --> 04:15:45,279
of coffee you can't it would filter

7542
04:15:48,229 --> 04:15:46,080
nothing

7543
04:15:49,590 --> 04:15:48,239
a coffee filter made of coffee wouldn't

7544
04:15:51,429 --> 04:15:49,600
work um

7545
04:15:53,030 --> 04:15:51,439
so if i say that everything is

7546
04:15:55,990 --> 04:15:53,040
consciousness and even the brain

7547
04:15:57,990 --> 04:15:56,000
is merely the image of certain conscious

7548
04:15:58,950 --> 04:15:58,000
processes it's the image of the thing

7549
04:16:00,950 --> 04:15:58,960
and as such

7550
04:16:03,269 --> 04:16:00,960
it cannot filter consciousness because

7551
04:16:04,790 --> 04:16:03,279
it is itself consciousness

7552
04:16:07,110 --> 04:16:04,800
now i think what's happening is that the

7553
04:16:08,550 --> 04:16:07,120
brain is the image of a dissociative

7554
04:16:12,710 --> 04:16:08,560
process in consciousness

7555
04:16:15,670 --> 04:16:12,720
and dissociation happens in a way

7556
04:16:16,950 --> 04:16:15,680
that can things happen because of

7557
04:16:20,790 --> 04:16:16,960
dissociation

7558
04:16:22,389 --> 04:16:20,800
as if the brain were a filter

7559
04:16:23,910 --> 04:16:22,399
if you see what i mean because the brain

7560
04:16:27,030 --> 04:16:23,920
is the image of a dissociate

7561
04:16:28,070 --> 04:16:27,040
dissociative process things happen as if

7562
04:16:31,189 --> 04:16:28,080
it were a filter

7563
04:16:32,550 --> 04:16:31,199
because dissociation is exclusive it

7564
04:16:34,229 --> 04:16:32,560
excludes certain things

7565
04:16:36,469 --> 04:16:34,239
it creates a boundary and it

7566
04:16:39,030 --> 04:16:36,479
differentiates what's in from what's out

7567
04:16:40,469 --> 04:16:39,040
and that's like a kind of filtering in

7568
04:16:41,510 --> 04:16:40,479
which you let certain things in and you

7569
04:16:44,870 --> 04:16:41,520
keep other things

7570
04:16:47,269 --> 04:16:44,880
out so things work as if

7571
04:16:49,510 --> 04:16:47,279
the brain were a filter and that's the

7572
04:16:51,750 --> 04:16:49,520
sense in which i think is useful

7573
04:16:53,030 --> 04:16:51,760
but the brain is not literally a filter

7574
04:16:54,710 --> 04:16:53,040
because you cannot have

7575
04:16:56,309 --> 04:16:54,720
a coffee filter made of coffee and for

7576
04:16:57,910 --> 04:16:56,319
the same reason you can cannot have a

7577
04:16:58,950 --> 04:16:57,920
filter of consciousness be made of

7578
04:17:00,309 --> 04:16:58,960
consciousness

7579
04:17:02,389 --> 04:17:00,319
i think it's just an image of a

7580
04:17:03,429 --> 04:17:02,399
dissociative process that works as if it

7581
04:17:04,950 --> 04:17:03,439
were a filter

7582
04:17:07,110 --> 04:17:04,960
and when you say it's an image of a

7583
04:17:08,790 --> 04:17:07,120
dissociative process as seen from the

7584
04:17:09,349 --> 04:17:08,800
second person on a first person pers

7585
04:17:10,550 --> 04:17:09,359
like the first

7586
04:17:13,269 --> 04:17:10,560
there's a first person perspective

7587
04:17:15,030 --> 04:17:13,279
associated with it one of the

7588
04:17:16,710 --> 04:17:15,040
what tripped me up initially and maybe

7589
04:17:18,070 --> 04:17:16,720
this will help some other people is that

7590
04:17:19,830 --> 04:17:18,080
when we think of mind

7591
04:17:21,429 --> 04:17:19,840
we tend to think of our example of mind

7592
04:17:22,630 --> 04:17:21,439
within our mind within our head i know

7593
04:17:23,670 --> 04:17:22,640
that's you don't like the within our

7594
04:17:25,269 --> 04:17:23,680
head aspect

7595
04:17:26,710 --> 04:17:25,279
but the way that thoughts relate to

7596
04:17:29,830 --> 04:17:26,720
other thoughts

7597
04:17:31,110 --> 04:17:29,840
it's volutinous and indistinct and

7598
04:17:33,590 --> 04:17:31,120
equivocal

7599
04:17:34,630 --> 04:17:33,600
so how could something as precise and

7600
04:17:36,950 --> 04:17:34,640
serene as

7601
04:17:38,950 --> 04:17:36,960
paper and the natural laws of physics

7602
04:17:40,550 --> 04:17:38,960
come from mind

7603
04:17:42,790 --> 04:17:40,560
well i guess i'm posing that as a

7604
04:17:44,790 --> 04:17:42,800
question but that's my way of saying it

7605
04:17:46,790 --> 04:17:44,800
out loud to clarify for some of the

7606
04:17:47,910 --> 04:17:46,800
audience members who are wondering how

7607
04:17:50,229 --> 04:17:47,920
could this all be in mind

7608
04:17:51,990 --> 04:17:50,239
given that our own example of mind is

7609
04:17:55,030 --> 04:17:52,000
nowhere near as precise as the

7610
04:17:58,309 --> 04:17:55,040
external world seems to be

7611
04:18:01,429 --> 04:17:58,319
our individual mind has arisen

7612
04:18:03,110 --> 04:18:01,439
from uh evolutionary processes through

7613
04:18:07,189 --> 04:18:03,120
cooperation and competition and

7614
04:18:10,149 --> 04:18:07,199
competition uh in a in an ecosystem

7615
04:18:10,790 --> 04:18:10,159
um and because of that our mind is

7616
04:18:14,070 --> 04:18:10,800
largely

7617
04:18:16,870 --> 04:18:14,080
uh reactive it works in an impulsive

7618
04:18:17,830 --> 04:18:16,880
reactive unstable way because it has

7619
04:18:22,149 --> 04:18:17,840
helped us survive

7620
04:18:24,229 --> 04:18:22,159
if a tiger would be stalking you

7621
04:18:25,830 --> 04:18:24,239
it would help you survive to react very

7622
04:18:28,469 --> 04:18:25,840
quickly to any sign

7623
04:18:30,469 --> 04:18:28,479
that the tiger might be stalking you

7624
04:18:33,910 --> 04:18:30,479
you'd have to react to things

7625
04:18:35,750 --> 04:18:33,920
to survive some forms of impulsive

7626
04:18:39,030 --> 04:18:35,760
behavior are also

7627
04:18:42,149 --> 04:18:39,040
conducive to survival and they allow for

7628
04:18:44,870 --> 04:18:42,159
quicker reaction time

7629
04:18:45,830 --> 04:18:44,880
reproduction you know it's nice to be

7630
04:18:49,030 --> 04:18:45,840
hopelessly

7631
04:18:50,149 --> 04:18:49,040
in love with someone that will guarantee

7632
04:18:55,910 --> 04:18:50,159
reproduction

7633
04:19:02,149 --> 04:18:59,030
the dispositions of our human mind

7634
04:19:03,750 --> 04:19:02,159
which have been shaped by competitive

7635
04:19:06,149 --> 04:19:03,760
and collaborative pressures

7636
04:19:07,349 --> 04:19:06,159
through evolution you cannot you cannot

7637
04:19:10,550 --> 04:19:07,359
compare the

7638
04:19:13,110 --> 04:19:10,560
more or less valuable and

7639
04:19:14,870 --> 04:19:13,120
in the and reactive character of our

7640
04:19:17,030 --> 04:19:14,880
orientation

7641
04:19:18,870 --> 04:19:17,040
to the mentation of a mind that has

7642
04:19:20,149 --> 04:19:18,880
never undergone this competitive

7643
04:19:22,870 --> 04:19:20,159
pressures

7644
04:19:23,830 --> 04:19:22,880
that other mind does not need to react

7645
04:19:26,710 --> 04:19:23,840
to an environment

7646
04:19:28,550 --> 04:19:26,720
does not need to react to threats does

7647
04:19:30,309 --> 04:19:28,560
not need to fall in love

7648
04:19:32,309 --> 04:19:30,319
because it's what there is there is

7649
04:19:34,389 --> 04:19:32,319
nothing outside it it's what

7650
04:19:35,590 --> 04:19:34,399
there was there is and there always will

7651
04:19:38,950 --> 04:19:35,600
be so

7652
04:19:42,870 --> 04:19:38,960
that mind has no reason to become

7653
04:19:45,990 --> 04:19:42,880
reactive and and and and

7654
04:19:46,630 --> 04:19:46,000
uh trigger happy uh like our minds is or

7655
04:19:48,790 --> 04:19:46,640
valuable

7656
04:19:50,950 --> 04:19:48,800
like our like our minds are because it

7657
04:19:52,149 --> 04:19:50,960
didn't have to survive an ecosystem and

7658
04:19:55,030 --> 04:19:52,159
compete and react

7659
04:19:55,590 --> 04:19:55,040
to to external influences so how would

7660
04:19:58,389 --> 04:19:55,600
it be

7661
04:19:59,670 --> 04:19:58,399
instead it would be exactly what it

7662
04:20:02,630 --> 04:19:59,680
seems to be

7663
04:20:05,670 --> 04:20:02,640
quite stable unfolding very predictably

7664
04:20:07,429 --> 04:20:05,680
according to its own mental archetypes

7665
04:20:09,110 --> 04:20:07,439
and we know it's stable because we can

7666
04:20:10,870 --> 04:20:09,120
model the behavior of nature

7667
04:20:12,950 --> 04:20:10,880
it doesn't change its laws from one day

7668
04:20:13,670 --> 04:20:12,960
to the other it seems to behave quite

7669
04:20:15,269 --> 04:20:13,680
stably

7670
04:20:16,950 --> 04:20:15,279
and what is a stable mind it's an

7671
04:20:17,590 --> 04:20:16,960
instinctive mind i'll offer you an

7672
04:20:19,990 --> 04:20:17,600
example

7673
04:20:21,269 --> 04:20:20,000
even lower animals not too low even

7674
04:20:23,269 --> 04:20:21,279
crocodiles

7675
04:20:25,670 --> 04:20:23,279
have very instinctive minds that are to

7676
04:20:29,349 --> 04:20:25,680
some extent reactive they will react

7677
04:20:30,870 --> 04:20:29,359
fast to threats but that fast reaction

7678
04:20:32,870 --> 04:20:30,880
is predictable

7679
04:20:34,550 --> 04:20:32,880
crocodiles are incredibly predictable

7680
04:20:37,189 --> 04:20:34,560
predictable you can you can

7681
04:20:38,389 --> 04:20:37,199
measure what distance between them and

7682
04:20:40,469 --> 04:20:38,399
you

7683
04:20:41,670 --> 04:20:40,479
they have to be at in order to try to

7684
04:20:43,030 --> 04:20:41,680
lounge at you

7685
04:20:44,950 --> 04:20:43,040
if the distance is higher than that they

7686
04:20:45,269 --> 04:20:44,960
will not even try if it's shorter than

7687
04:20:47,110 --> 04:20:45,279
that

7688
04:20:48,790 --> 04:20:47,120
they are guaranteed to try to lounge at

7689
04:20:51,349 --> 04:20:48,800
you and eat you

7690
04:20:52,550 --> 04:20:51,359
so instinctive minds are very

7691
04:20:55,510 --> 04:20:52,560
predictable

7692
04:20:57,269 --> 04:20:55,520
minds in the case of the universe i

7693
04:20:57,910 --> 04:20:57,279
think it's distinctive but in addition

7694
04:21:00,070 --> 04:20:57,920
to that

7695
04:21:01,590 --> 04:21:00,080
it's not reactive either because it's

7696
04:21:02,469 --> 04:21:01,600
all there is it doesn't have anything to

7697
04:21:04,950 --> 04:21:02,479
have to react

7698
04:21:06,469 --> 04:21:04,960
to and that seems to be exactly how it

7699
04:21:08,070 --> 04:21:06,479
behaves

7700
04:21:09,990 --> 04:21:08,080
what occurs to me right now with this

7701
04:21:11,910 --> 04:21:10,000
instinctual metaphor is that

7702
04:21:13,110 --> 04:21:11,920
it seems like it there's a bit of

7703
04:21:13,510 --> 04:21:13,120
assuming what you're trying to prove

7704
04:21:15,990 --> 04:21:13,520
there

7705
04:21:17,590 --> 04:21:16,000
so for example let's take a fly and then

7706
04:21:19,030 --> 04:21:17,600
you shine some photons on the right side

7707
04:21:21,590 --> 04:21:19,040
and then it's wings on the left

7708
04:21:23,269 --> 04:21:21,600
move okay the way we explain that is

7709
04:21:26,469 --> 04:21:23,279
mechanistically

7710
04:21:30,550 --> 04:21:26,479
and without mind traditionally

7711
04:21:32,070 --> 04:21:30,560
so then this would be an example of

7712
04:21:33,910 --> 04:21:32,080
either demonstrating that the universe

7713
04:21:35,349 --> 04:21:33,920
is mechanistic at its core or that

7714
04:21:37,590 --> 04:21:35,359
you're saying well

7715
04:21:39,269 --> 04:21:37,600
well mind is what is mechanistic but i'm

7716
04:21:39,910 --> 04:21:39,279
asking you about the mechanistic aspect

7717
04:21:41,590 --> 04:21:39,920
of mind yeah

7718
04:21:43,189 --> 04:21:41,600
i i i know exactly where you're coming

7719
04:21:45,910 --> 04:21:43,199
from you're saying aren't you

7720
04:21:46,870 --> 04:21:45,920
just projecting onto reality what you

7721
04:21:50,309 --> 04:21:46,880
expect to see

7722
04:21:54,469 --> 04:21:52,630
it's making a theory unfalsifiable when

7723
04:21:55,110 --> 04:21:54,479
you manage to construe every piece of

7724
04:21:56,550 --> 04:21:55,120
evidence

7725
04:21:58,269 --> 04:21:56,560
in the light of your theory then you

7726
04:22:01,510 --> 04:21:58,279
turn it into something

7727
04:22:03,030 --> 04:22:01,520
unfalsifiable um some people i mean i am

7728
04:22:03,990 --> 04:22:03,040
a believer in evolution by natural

7729
04:22:05,910 --> 04:22:04,000
selection i don't think it's

7730
04:22:07,030 --> 04:22:05,920
random but i think evolution by natural

7731
04:22:08,870 --> 04:22:07,040
selection happens

7732
04:22:10,550 --> 04:22:08,880
and some people who are in favor of

7733
04:22:12,710 --> 04:22:10,560
evolution by natural selection make it

7734
04:22:15,269 --> 04:22:12,720
unfalsifiable because you see

7735
04:22:16,229 --> 04:22:15,279
if the bird of paradise has these super

7736
04:22:19,189 --> 04:22:16,239
colorful

7737
04:22:19,910 --> 04:22:19,199
feathers that make it obvious in an

7738
04:22:22,149 --> 04:22:19,920
environment

7739
04:22:24,229 --> 04:22:22,159
it's because it attracts mates that way

7740
04:22:26,870 --> 04:22:24,239
by making itself very conspicuous

7741
04:22:29,670 --> 04:22:26,880
it will attract mates mates will see him

7742
04:22:31,429 --> 04:22:29,680
he will be more attractive that's right

7743
04:22:33,590 --> 04:22:31,439
but if it's a black bird that you can

7744
04:22:35,510 --> 04:22:33,600
hardly see it's boring to death then no

7745
04:22:36,710 --> 04:22:35,520
it survives because it's camouflaged and

7746
04:22:38,429 --> 04:22:36,720
the predators can see

7747
04:22:40,870 --> 04:22:38,439
so you can you can make the theory

7748
04:22:42,389 --> 04:22:40,880
unfalsifiable if you go down this path

7749
04:22:44,309 --> 04:22:42,399
luckily that's not what we are doing

7750
04:22:45,750 --> 04:22:44,319
today to to defend uh

7751
04:22:47,510 --> 04:22:45,760
the theory of evolution there are

7752
04:22:48,070 --> 04:22:47,520
genetic studies there are experimental

7753
04:22:49,910 --> 04:22:48,080
studies

7754
04:22:52,389 --> 04:22:49,920
so it runs a little deeper than that but

7755
04:22:55,349 --> 04:22:52,399
i am sensitive to this idea of turning

7756
04:22:57,349 --> 04:22:55,359
a theory into something unfalsifiable by

7757
04:22:59,030 --> 04:22:57,359
interpreting everything favorably

7758
04:23:01,349 --> 04:22:59,040
i don't think that is what i'm doing and

7759
04:23:03,349 --> 04:23:01,359
i tell you why

7760
04:23:05,670 --> 04:23:03,359
if i start from the premises of the

7761
04:23:07,990 --> 04:23:05,680
theory everything is mental and we are

7762
04:23:09,670 --> 04:23:08,000
part of mind but nature at large is also

7763
04:23:13,590 --> 04:23:09,680
mental in nature

7764
04:23:15,510 --> 04:23:13,600
what would you expect to be the case

7765
04:23:18,149 --> 04:23:15,520
based on what we know about life the

7766
04:23:21,990 --> 04:23:18,159
universe and everything

7767
04:23:25,590 --> 04:23:22,000
i would be surprised if nature were

7768
04:23:28,630 --> 04:23:25,600
valuable unpredictable and reactive

7769
04:23:31,910 --> 04:23:28,640
under the framework of my theory

7770
04:23:33,429 --> 04:23:31,920
because it wouldn't fit with my theory

7771
04:23:36,950 --> 04:23:33,439
because you see

7772
04:23:39,750 --> 04:23:36,960
our minds have undergone very different

7773
04:23:41,269 --> 04:23:39,760
shaping forces and dynamics than the

7774
04:23:44,870 --> 04:23:41,279
mind that has never needed

7775
04:23:48,070 --> 04:23:44,880
to undergo evolution so i the theory

7776
04:23:50,070 --> 04:23:48,080
suggests or implies that these two types

7777
04:23:51,429 --> 04:23:50,080
of mind a dissociated one and a natural

7778
04:23:53,189 --> 04:23:51,439
one

7779
04:23:54,710 --> 04:23:53,199
should behave very differently because

7780
04:23:56,550 --> 04:23:54,720
one has undergone the pressures of

7781
04:24:00,309 --> 04:23:56,560
natural selection and the other

7782
04:24:04,149 --> 04:24:00,319
didn't so i think what we are observing

7783
04:24:07,750 --> 04:24:06,070
i i think that the universe is

7784
04:24:09,830 --> 04:24:07,760
predictable and behaves itself

7785
04:24:12,790 --> 04:24:09,840
differently than our own minds

7786
04:24:16,309 --> 04:24:12,800
is what you would expect if the theory

7787
04:24:18,229 --> 04:24:16,319
i'm i'm proposing is correct

7788
04:24:20,389 --> 04:24:18,239
anything else would sort of contradict

7789
04:24:22,309 --> 04:24:20,399
it because then you would say well

7790
04:24:23,750 --> 04:24:22,319
how can these minds be the same one has

7791
04:24:25,269 --> 04:24:23,760
undergone the pressures of natural

7792
04:24:27,269 --> 04:24:25,279
selection and the other hasn't

7793
04:24:28,950 --> 04:24:27,279
so by what miracle are they the same it

7794
04:24:31,429 --> 04:24:28,960
would be dissonant

7795
04:24:33,030 --> 04:24:31,439
it would it wouldn't be nice so i don't

7796
04:24:35,269 --> 04:24:33,040
yeah sorry have you thought of a

7797
04:24:36,149 --> 04:24:35,279
prediction that is falsifiable for your

7798
04:24:38,950 --> 04:24:36,159
framework

7799
04:24:41,590 --> 04:24:38,960
of the world your conceptualization of

7800
04:24:43,590 --> 04:24:41,600
the metaphysics

7801
04:24:45,750 --> 04:24:43,600
i know this is tricky this even plays

7802
04:24:47,750 --> 04:24:45,760
strength yeah but i can mention a few

7803
04:24:49,110 --> 04:24:47,760
uh they are on the edge of what

7804
04:24:53,349 --> 04:24:49,120
technology allows us

7805
04:24:57,429 --> 04:24:53,359
to measure uh but i can mention a few um

7806
04:25:01,670 --> 04:24:57,439
if we were not aware

7807
04:25:05,429 --> 04:25:01,680
of any experiential state

7808
04:25:07,990 --> 04:25:05,439
whose richness and intensity

7809
04:25:10,790 --> 04:25:08,000
is not directly correlated to the degree

7810
04:25:13,269 --> 04:25:10,800
of brain activity

7811
04:25:15,590 --> 04:25:13,279
then i would say well it doesn't

7812
04:25:19,429 --> 04:25:15,600
immediately falsify my theory

7813
04:25:20,950 --> 04:25:19,439
but you know under my theory if if our

7814
04:25:23,349 --> 04:25:20,960
individual minds are dissociated

7815
04:25:24,950 --> 04:25:23,359
processes then there should be some

7816
04:25:26,790 --> 04:25:24,960
mental states that correspond to

7817
04:25:29,110 --> 04:25:26,800
reduction of dissociation

7818
04:25:30,950 --> 04:25:29,120
therefore less brain activity but enrich

7819
04:25:34,149 --> 04:25:30,960
the experience because now you have the

7820
04:25:36,309 --> 04:25:34,159
the cognitive inferential links so

7821
04:25:38,309 --> 04:25:36,319
the theory would expect that at least

7822
04:25:39,510 --> 04:25:38,319
some experiential states would break the

7823
04:25:41,110 --> 04:25:39,520
correlation between

7824
04:25:43,269 --> 04:25:41,120
regionals of experience and the degree

7825
04:25:44,630 --> 04:25:43,279
of brain activity most of them most of

7826
04:25:46,149 --> 04:25:44,640
the time they will go together but there

7827
04:25:47,750 --> 04:25:46,159
should be some states

7828
04:25:49,269 --> 04:25:47,760
in which the reduction of brain activity

7829
04:25:50,070 --> 04:25:49,279
is a reduction of the dissociation

7830
04:25:51,429 --> 04:25:50,080
itself

7831
04:25:53,030 --> 04:25:51,439
i imagine you could say near-death

7832
04:25:53,990 --> 04:25:53,040
experience is an example of this no

7833
04:25:55,269 --> 04:25:54,000
psychedelics

7834
04:25:57,590 --> 04:25:55,279
there are there are thousands there are

7835
04:26:01,110 --> 04:25:57,600
lots of examples psychedelics

7836
04:26:03,750 --> 04:26:01,120
uh um hyperventilation uh the choking

7837
04:26:06,309 --> 04:26:03,760
game erotic strangulation

7838
04:26:07,670 --> 04:26:06,319
um um g-force induced loss of

7839
04:26:11,670 --> 04:26:07,680
consciousness

7840
04:26:14,469 --> 04:26:11,680
um um trans trans states

7841
04:26:16,070 --> 04:26:14,479
all of these things brain injury

7842
04:26:18,710 --> 04:26:16,080
acquired savann

7843
04:26:19,510 --> 04:26:18,720
syndrome collateral damage from brain

7844
04:26:22,309 --> 04:26:19,520
surgery

7845
04:26:22,630 --> 04:26:22,319
i i can i mean i've done it before i

7846
04:26:24,790 --> 04:26:22,640
have

7847
04:26:26,469 --> 04:26:24,800
listed like two dozen papers that show

7848
04:26:27,030 --> 04:26:26,479
that these are all instances in which

7849
04:26:28,790 --> 04:26:27,040
you have

7850
04:26:30,710 --> 04:26:28,800
reduced or impaired brain activity

7851
04:26:33,990 --> 04:26:30,720
accompanied by enriched experience

7852
04:26:36,229 --> 04:26:34,000
while we're on the subject of erotica

7853
04:26:37,990 --> 04:26:36,239
association so is there something about

7854
04:26:40,309 --> 04:26:38,000
sex that

7855
04:26:42,790 --> 04:26:40,319
is actually oneness you know people say

7856
04:26:45,269 --> 04:26:42,800
that well i feel one with my partner

7857
04:26:47,030 --> 04:26:45,279
it's that actually occurring is it like

7858
04:26:48,469 --> 04:26:47,040
the ramified branches of the leaves and

7859
04:26:50,710 --> 04:26:48,479
they're coming closer

7860
04:26:53,269 --> 04:26:50,720
or is it just a perception of that

7861
04:26:55,670 --> 04:26:53,279
oneness never ceases to occur

7862
04:26:57,590 --> 04:26:55,680
it's always the case but some activities

7863
04:26:58,870 --> 04:26:57,600
may bring you closer to the recognition

7864
04:27:01,590 --> 04:26:58,880
of it

7865
04:27:02,630 --> 04:27:01,600
and i i have no doubt that sexual

7866
04:27:04,870 --> 04:27:02,640
ecstasy

7867
04:27:06,550 --> 04:27:04,880
brings you quite close to to the

7868
04:27:07,830 --> 04:27:06,560
recognition of the oneness that is the

7869
04:27:08,950 --> 04:27:07,840
case all the time it's there all the

7870
04:27:11,750 --> 04:27:08,960
time

7871
04:27:13,349 --> 04:27:11,760
we just don't sense it clearly we don't

7872
04:27:14,309 --> 04:27:13,359
we don't pay attention to it we're not

7873
04:27:16,870 --> 04:27:14,319
open to it

7874
04:27:18,710 --> 04:27:16,880
and sexual ecstasy sort of brings that

7875
04:27:21,510 --> 04:27:18,720
recognition

7876
04:27:22,630 --> 04:27:21,520
to you other activities as well but you

7877
04:27:25,510 --> 04:27:22,640
know it's not for nothing

7878
04:27:26,229 --> 04:27:25,520
that um in the subcontinent there we go

7879
04:27:29,349 --> 04:27:26,239
again

7880
04:27:30,550 --> 04:27:29,359
um tantra is a spiritual path based on

7881
04:27:33,110 --> 04:27:30,560
sexual ecstasy

7882
04:27:34,149 --> 04:27:33,120
you know these guys realized something

7883
04:27:35,990 --> 04:27:34,159
there

7884
04:27:37,830 --> 04:27:36,000
they are onto something can you feel

7885
04:27:39,670 --> 04:27:37,840
this oneness without feeling any

7886
04:27:41,429 --> 04:27:39,680
euphoria attached that is the opposite

7887
04:27:44,790 --> 04:27:41,439
can you feel dysphoria

7888
04:27:47,830 --> 04:27:44,800
it i don't think

7889
04:27:50,870 --> 04:27:47,840
euphoria is inherent in nature

7890
04:27:53,030 --> 04:27:50,880
i think the euphoria we feel when in

7891
04:27:54,950 --> 04:27:53,040
close proximity to the recognition of

7892
04:27:56,229 --> 04:27:54,960
oneness has to do with the kind of

7893
04:27:59,990 --> 04:27:56,239
relief

7894
04:28:01,830 --> 04:28:00,000
um because the dissociated state

7895
04:28:03,269 --> 04:28:01,840
we are used to it so we don't recognize

7896
04:28:06,550 --> 04:28:03,279
it anymore for

7897
04:28:08,870 --> 04:28:06,560
how difficult and taxing it is

7898
04:28:09,990 --> 04:28:08,880
how much energy it requires to remain

7899
04:28:12,070 --> 04:28:10,000
dissociated

7900
04:28:13,910 --> 04:28:12,080
and when when we come to the recognition

7901
04:28:15,830 --> 04:28:13,920
of oneness it's like

7902
04:28:18,469 --> 04:28:15,840
that that natural process sort of

7903
04:28:19,189 --> 04:28:18,479
relaxes and allows itself to be what it

7904
04:28:21,590 --> 04:28:19,199
naturally

7905
04:28:23,590 --> 04:28:21,600
is without that tension that energy that

7906
04:28:24,870 --> 04:28:23,600
effort required to mode it in that

7907
04:28:26,710 --> 04:28:24,880
particular form

7908
04:28:28,790 --> 04:28:26,720
and we register that because of the

7909
04:28:33,030 --> 04:28:28,800
contrast as

7910
04:28:36,550 --> 04:28:33,040
uh bliss because in comparison

7911
04:28:38,229 --> 04:28:36,560
to the taxing state we we are in

7912
04:28:41,030 --> 04:28:38,239
by the mere fact that we are alive in

7913
04:28:43,429 --> 04:28:41,040
comparison to that it is blissful

7914
04:28:44,070 --> 04:28:43,439
but i don't think it's inherently

7915
04:28:46,790 --> 04:28:44,080
blissful

7916
04:28:48,550 --> 04:28:46,800
in the absence of that contrastual

7917
04:28:50,309 --> 04:28:48,560
reference if you know what i mean

7918
04:28:52,790 --> 04:28:50,319
okay everyone me and bernardo we have to

7919
04:28:55,429 --> 04:28:52,800
go what time is it there bernardo

7920
04:28:57,189 --> 04:28:55,439
it's a a quarter of 10 to 10 and i

7921
04:28:57,590 --> 04:28:57,199
haven't had dinner yet we are talking

7922
04:28:59,910 --> 04:28:57,600
since

7923
04:29:00,950 --> 04:28:59,920
uh five o'clock so we're almost five

7924
04:29:03,269 --> 04:29:00,960
hours five hours

7925
04:29:05,030 --> 04:29:03,279
holy moly well this is probably the best

7926
04:29:07,510 --> 04:29:05,040
podcast i've ever

7927
04:29:08,630 --> 04:29:07,520
had the pleasure of not only taking part

7928
04:29:10,630 --> 04:29:08,640
in but listening to

7929
04:29:11,750 --> 04:29:10,640
so oh thank you sir it's an honor then

7930
04:29:14,070 --> 04:29:11,760
thank you glad i

7931
04:29:14,870 --> 04:29:14,080
contributed to this achievement yeah

7932
04:29:18,790 --> 04:29:14,880
thank you thank you

7933
04:29:20,870 --> 04:29:18,800
how was it for you it's been fun uh um

7934
04:29:22,790 --> 04:29:20,880
if it hadn't been i wouldn't have been

7935
04:29:24,870 --> 04:29:22,800
talking to you for five hours so

7936
04:29:26,229 --> 04:29:24,880
that's the proof that i think it has

7937
04:29:28,550 --> 04:29:26,239
been very constructive

7938
04:29:30,309 --> 04:29:28,560
positive and and very enjoyable we'll

7939
04:29:31,670 --> 04:29:30,319
take one question if you can write this

7940
04:29:33,269 --> 04:29:31,680
quickly

7941
04:29:34,550 --> 04:29:33,279
someone named cecily said what's the

7942
04:29:35,670 --> 04:29:34,560
relationship between the universal

7943
04:29:39,750 --> 04:29:35,680
consciousness

7944
04:29:43,910 --> 04:29:41,670
i think the motivation for sir rogers

7945
04:29:46,550 --> 04:29:43,920
postulation of the platonic realm

7946
04:29:48,469 --> 04:29:46,560
is that there seem to be some built-in

7947
04:29:52,229 --> 04:29:48,479
dispositions in nature

7948
04:29:54,630 --> 04:29:52,239
some built-in patterns of behavior um

7949
04:29:55,510 --> 04:29:54,640
and and then he postulates this platonic

7950
04:29:57,670 --> 04:29:55,520
realm

7951
04:29:58,710 --> 04:29:57,680
to account for those regularities which

7952
04:30:00,790 --> 04:29:58,720
he cannot see

7953
04:30:02,229 --> 04:30:00,800
in in the mental world alone or in the

7954
04:30:04,149 --> 04:30:02,239
physical world alone

7955
04:30:06,389 --> 04:30:04,159
um i i don't see the need to make that

7956
04:30:08,950 --> 04:30:06,399
distinction i think the regularities he

7957
04:30:12,710 --> 04:30:08,960
sees the the platonic principles

7958
04:30:16,070 --> 04:30:12,720
so to say are merely the archetypes

7959
04:30:18,309 --> 04:30:16,080
of the natural mind the inherent

7960
04:30:20,550 --> 04:30:18,319
dispositions or the natural frequencies

7961
04:30:21,990 --> 04:30:20,560
of vibration or the inherent harmonics

7962
04:30:23,910 --> 04:30:22,000
of the natural mind

7963
04:30:25,429 --> 04:30:23,920
which are what they are by virtue of

7964
04:30:26,950 --> 04:30:25,439
mind being what it is

7965
04:30:29,030 --> 04:30:26,960
in other words you don't need an

7966
04:30:30,550 --> 04:30:29,040
ontologically distinct realm to account

7967
04:30:32,630 --> 04:30:30,560
for those regularities

7968
04:30:34,309 --> 04:30:32,640
they are accounted for by the fact that

7969
04:30:36,309 --> 04:30:34,319
mind is what it is

7970
04:30:37,670 --> 04:30:36,319
it had to be something and to be

7971
04:30:38,469 --> 04:30:37,680
something it has to have certain

7972
04:30:40,550 --> 04:30:38,479
properties

7973
04:30:41,910 --> 04:30:40,560
and those regularities are those

7974
04:30:43,590 --> 04:30:41,920
properties you don't need something

7975
04:30:45,990 --> 04:30:43,600
outside mind to account for them

7976
04:30:47,510 --> 04:30:46,000
they are what they represent what mind

7977
04:30:51,510 --> 04:30:47,520
is

7978
04:30:53,189 --> 04:30:51,520
way or does logic plus

7979
04:30:54,950 --> 04:30:53,199
information produce the same predictive

7980
04:30:58,229 --> 04:30:54,960
power

7981
04:31:01,510 --> 04:30:58,239
science has never required materialism

7982
04:31:04,870 --> 04:31:01,520
it's uh it's a method of study based on

7983
04:31:06,630 --> 04:31:04,880
rational reasoning and most of all

7984
04:31:07,990 --> 04:31:06,640
empirical experimentation and

7985
04:31:10,469 --> 04:31:08,000
observation

7986
04:31:11,910 --> 04:31:10,479
none of this requires any metaphysical

7987
04:31:13,990 --> 04:31:11,920
commitment of any sort

7988
04:31:15,910 --> 04:31:14,000
because all of this is about how nature

7989
04:31:19,030 --> 04:31:15,920
behaves and how we can predict

7990
04:31:21,670 --> 04:31:19,040
nature's behavior none of it

7991
04:31:23,189 --> 04:31:21,680
implies a commitment to a particular

7992
04:31:26,309 --> 04:31:23,199
position about what nature

7993
04:31:28,950 --> 04:31:26,319
is in and of itself we cannot

7994
04:31:29,750 --> 04:31:28,960
have access to nature as it is in and of

7995
04:31:31,269 --> 04:31:29,760
itself

7996
04:31:33,189 --> 04:31:31,279
other than the access we have to

7997
04:31:35,590 --> 04:31:33,199
ourselves as parts of nature

7998
04:31:37,110 --> 04:31:35,600
and on the basis of that access the only

7999
04:31:39,590 --> 04:31:37,120
thing we can say is that just

8000
04:31:41,110 --> 04:31:39,600
like we are mental beings from within so

8001
04:31:43,830 --> 04:31:41,120
is the rest of nature

8002
04:31:44,950 --> 04:31:43,840
but science is based on an observation

8003
04:31:48,070 --> 04:31:44,960
of behavior

8004
04:31:49,590 --> 04:31:48,080
cataloging and modeling the regularities

8005
04:31:52,950 --> 04:31:49,600
of nature's behavior

8006
04:31:55,189 --> 04:31:52,960
that does not require materialism or

8007
04:31:56,149 --> 04:31:55,199
any metaphysical commitment also not

8008
04:31:58,630 --> 04:31:56,159
idealism

8009
04:31:59,189 --> 04:31:58,640
that can be based on a complete that can

8010
04:32:01,910 --> 04:31:59,199
be done

8011
04:32:03,750 --> 04:32:01,920
on a complete metaphysical vacuum it's

8012
04:32:06,710 --> 04:32:03,760
just that human beings

8013
04:32:08,790 --> 04:32:06,720
are not perfect we always need a

8014
04:32:09,590 --> 04:32:08,800
metaphysical narrative to inform our

8015
04:32:12,389 --> 04:32:09,600
actions

8016
04:32:14,229 --> 04:32:12,399
so in practice many scientists work

8017
04:32:17,349 --> 04:32:14,239
under the assumptions of materialism

8018
04:32:18,309 --> 04:32:17,359
but that is not science that is the

8019
04:32:21,750 --> 04:32:18,319
prejudices

8020
04:32:24,229 --> 04:32:21,760
of the people who practice science

8021
04:32:26,550 --> 04:32:24,239
but science as an ideal method as

8022
04:32:27,269 --> 04:32:26,560
defined and enshrined in our culture as

8023
04:32:29,590 --> 04:32:27,279
a method

8024
04:32:30,950 --> 04:32:29,600
is completely metaphysics agnostic we

8025
04:32:33,189 --> 04:32:30,960
don't need any metaphysics

8026
04:32:34,710 --> 04:32:33,199
to make science successful i would argue

8027
04:32:36,550 --> 04:32:34,720
that it has

8028
04:32:38,550 --> 04:32:36,560
much more chances to be successful even

8029
04:32:41,830 --> 04:32:38,560
more successful than it already is

8030
04:32:44,870 --> 04:32:41,840
if we eliminate metaphysical metaphysics

8031
04:32:46,710 --> 04:32:44,880
from it if we keep ourselves really open

8032
04:32:48,070 --> 04:32:46,720
to every possibility and just look at

8033
04:32:49,349 --> 04:32:48,080
what science can tell us which is the

8034
04:32:51,349 --> 04:32:49,359
behavior of nature

8035
04:32:53,030 --> 04:32:51,359
we would explore avenues of research

8036
04:32:54,389 --> 04:32:53,040
that today we ignore

8037
04:32:56,469 --> 04:32:54,399
because our hidden metaphysical

8038
04:32:58,710 --> 04:32:56,479
assumptions tell us that they are

8039
04:33:00,309 --> 04:32:58,720
impossible and they will produce nothing

8040
04:33:00,630 --> 04:33:00,319
well how do we know we never looked at

8041
04:33:02,229 --> 04:33:00,640
it

8042
04:33:03,990 --> 04:33:02,239
we think they are impossible because of

8043
04:33:06,230 --> 04:33:04,000
metaphysical assumptions science would

8044
04:33:09,349 --> 04:33:06,240
be better off without any metaphysics

8045
04:33:11,349 --> 04:33:09,359
certainly without materialism

8046
04:33:13,269 --> 04:33:11,359
thank you bernard get some rest get

8047
04:33:14,551 --> 04:33:13,279
something to eat i'm gonna

8048
04:33:16,470 --> 04:33:14,561
i have i've been fasting so i'm gonna

8049
04:33:18,551 --> 04:33:16,480
break my fast as well

8050
04:33:20,230 --> 04:33:18,561
and thank you man it's been quite an

8051
04:33:22,310 --> 04:33:20,240
experience i'm grateful to you

8052
04:33:24,390 --> 04:33:22,320
it's not been a usual interview i give

8053
04:33:26,390 --> 04:33:24,400
three two three four interviews per week

8054
04:33:27,510 --> 04:33:26,400
and usually it's the same thing and this

8055
04:33:29,189 --> 04:33:27,520
has not been that

8056
04:33:31,109 --> 04:33:29,199
so i'm grateful to you thanks so much

8057
04:33:32,629 --> 04:33:31,119
i'm grateful to you and hopefully

8058
04:33:36,230 --> 04:33:32,639
the mind at large can bless me with a

8059
04:33:38,949 --> 04:33:36,240
hairline like yours because i'm balding

8060
04:33:40,470 --> 04:33:38,959
don't take yourself too seriously i'm

8061
04:33:41,750 --> 04:33:40,480
looking for something so if anyone knows

8062
04:33:43,670 --> 04:33:41,760
some treatments for that oh

8063
04:33:45,109 --> 04:33:43,680
i'm looking into follicle something

8064
04:33:47,189 --> 04:33:45,119
f-u-e we'll see

8065
04:33:48,830 --> 04:33:47,199
we'll see okay where can people find out

8066
04:33:51,590 --> 04:33:48,840
more about you and

8067
04:34:01,429 --> 04:33:51,600
bernardo.com have a good one man

8068
04:34:05,109 --> 04:34:03,429
my backgrounds in math and physics i i

8069
04:34:06,949 --> 04:34:05,119
did my undergrad and that

8070
04:34:08,551 --> 04:34:06,959
and then i went into filmmaking pretty

8071
04:34:11,349 --> 04:34:08,561
much a filmmaker since

8072
04:34:12,709 --> 04:34:11,359
and now i've always had something called

8073
04:34:14,470 --> 04:34:12,719
you know the theory of everything in the

8074
04:34:16,390 --> 04:34:14,480
back of my mind like

8075
04:34:17,830 --> 04:34:16,400
first of all i want to get an entire

8076
04:34:18,470 --> 04:34:17,840
view of the landscape of theories of

8077
04:34:20,789 --> 04:34:18,480
everything

8078
04:34:22,629 --> 04:34:20,799
and then pull and make a confection of

8079
04:34:23,750 --> 04:34:22,639
my own theory perhaps i won't but at

8080
04:34:24,869 --> 04:34:23,760
least i want to understand all the

8081
04:34:26,629 --> 04:34:24,879
theories and

8082
04:34:27,990 --> 04:34:26,639
give an overview to the audience as well

8083
04:34:31,029 --> 04:34:28,000
and that's that's actually

8084
04:34:34,629 --> 04:34:31,039
it's not simple at all it's taking

8085
04:34:37,109 --> 04:34:34,639
almost all my time so if i seem

8086
04:34:38,709 --> 04:34:37,119
like i am tired it's because i don't

8087
04:34:39,990 --> 04:34:38,719
know why but well bernardo i can tell

8088
04:34:42,390 --> 04:34:40,000
you about this afterwards i had

8089
04:34:44,470 --> 04:34:42,400
not a trip but something akin to a trip

8090
04:34:46,470 --> 04:34:44,480
that just it sent me in the spiral this

8091
04:34:47,910 --> 04:34:46,480
loop of of a panic attack i've never had

8092
04:34:50,390 --> 04:34:47,920
a panic attack before

8093
04:34:51,670 --> 04:34:50,400
and it had to do with me thinking i'm

8094
04:34:53,349 --> 04:34:51,680
crazy because i

8095
04:34:54,789 --> 04:34:53,359
heard a voice i thought i heard a voice

8096
04:34:56,390 --> 04:34:54,799
like i was half sleeping

8097
04:34:57,830 --> 04:34:56,400
so i thought i heard my wife say okay or

8098
04:34:59,750 --> 04:34:57,840
yes and she could have

8099
04:35:01,670 --> 04:34:59,760
but i don't know if she did and i was

8100
04:35:04,470 --> 04:35:01,680
half sleeping anyway and then i thought

8101
04:35:06,390 --> 04:35:04,480
am i going crazy and since then for

8102
04:35:08,629 --> 04:35:06,400
maybe four weeks ago three weeks ago

8103
04:35:10,230 --> 04:35:08,639
i've had trouble sleeping because it's

8104
04:35:11,830 --> 04:35:10,240
difficult for me to

8105
04:35:13,590 --> 04:35:11,840
sit with my own thoughts and i don't

8106
04:35:16,709 --> 04:35:13,600
want to take sleeping medication it's so

8107
04:35:17,830 --> 04:35:16,719
addictive so so i've had trouble

8108
04:35:19,830 --> 04:35:17,840
sleeping and

8109
04:35:21,510 --> 04:35:19,840
and i'm intensely studying for you

8110
04:35:23,109 --> 04:35:21,520
intensely studying for some other people

8111
04:35:23,990 --> 04:35:23,119
and it's compounding and compounding and

8112
04:35:27,429 --> 04:35:24,000
i feel like i'm

8113
04:35:29,910 --> 04:35:27,439
wearing myself so thin and

8114
04:35:30,949 --> 04:35:29,920
luckily after this i can breathe a big

8115
04:35:32,470 --> 04:35:30,959
sigh of relief

8116
04:35:34,230 --> 04:35:32,480
because i don't have to prep and maybe

8117
04:35:34,789 --> 04:35:34,240
we can even do a part two but just so

8118
04:35:36,709 --> 04:35:34,799
you know that's

8119
04:35:38,551 --> 04:35:36,719
where i'm coming from in my mind yeah

8120
04:35:39,510 --> 04:35:38,561
look these big questions are very

8121
04:35:41,429 --> 04:35:39,520
dangerous uh

8122
04:35:42,949 --> 04:35:41,439
questions this has been known throughout

8123
04:35:45,830 --> 04:35:42,959
the history of humanity

8124
04:35:46,789 --> 04:35:45,840
that this is dangerous sacred ground to

8125
04:35:49,029 --> 04:35:46,799
tread on

8126
04:35:50,070 --> 04:35:49,039
they can be all consuming because they

8127
04:35:52,789 --> 04:35:50,080
have to do with what we

8128
04:35:53,750 --> 04:35:52,799
really really are and there is vertical

8129
04:35:55,910 --> 04:35:53,760
involved in

8130
04:35:57,189 --> 04:35:55,920
in even contemplating that space so it's

8131
04:35:58,869 --> 04:35:57,199
not surprising that

8132
04:36:00,869 --> 04:35:58,879
this has happened to you it has happened

8133
04:36:03,910 --> 04:36:00,879
to me has happened to

8134
04:36:04,949 --> 04:36:03,920
nearly every worthwhile philosopher for

8135
04:36:06,709 --> 04:36:04,959
whom philosopher

8136
04:36:08,551 --> 04:36:06,719
philadelphia is a way of life not not

8137
04:36:11,189 --> 04:36:08,561
just a job so this

8138
04:36:13,189 --> 04:36:11,199
this this is this is known uh although

8139
04:36:15,590 --> 04:36:13,199
it may be unfamiliar to you

8140
04:36:17,429 --> 04:36:15,600
you're not alone in treading this this

8141
04:36:21,590 --> 04:36:17,439
mind feud

8142
04:36:23,189 --> 04:36:21,600
thank you thank you that that does help

8143
04:36:25,670 --> 04:36:23,199
something that doesn't help is knowing

8144
04:36:27,990 --> 04:36:25,680
that people like cantor

8145
04:36:29,429 --> 04:36:28,000
drove himself mad by studying infinity

8146
04:36:31,590 --> 04:36:29,439
or at least that's what he said

8147
04:36:33,990 --> 04:36:31,600
and and i'm i'm wondering how much of

8148
04:36:35,429 --> 04:36:34,000
this with me delving into the

8149
04:36:37,429 --> 04:36:35,439
depths of reality which is like the

8150
04:36:39,510 --> 04:36:37,439
depths of myself as well

8151
04:36:40,949 --> 04:36:39,520
is going to bring about psychosis and i

8152
04:36:42,869 --> 04:36:40,959
don't want that and i had

8153
04:36:44,150 --> 04:36:42,879
an experience once about one and a half

8154
04:36:45,830 --> 04:36:44,160
years ago and

8155
04:36:48,470 --> 04:36:45,840
what happened was i was typing and then

8156
04:36:51,189 --> 04:36:48,480
it said yes you're not the only one

8157
04:36:52,070 --> 04:36:51,199
ha i'm here like on its own and i

8158
04:36:53,590 --> 04:36:52,080
watched i'm like

8159
04:36:55,189 --> 04:36:53,600
shoot is there another part of me and

8160
04:36:56,390 --> 04:36:55,199
then i immediately got up and i felt

8161
04:36:58,230 --> 04:36:56,400
waves of anxiety

8162
04:36:59,990 --> 04:36:58,240
and i had to then i was like shoot i

8163
04:37:02,310 --> 04:37:00,000
don't want to feel like this i don't

8164
04:37:04,150 --> 04:37:02,320
want to have this experience through the

8165
04:37:05,189 --> 04:37:04,160
rest of my life because i have a wife i

8166
04:37:07,349 --> 04:37:05,199
love my life

8167
04:37:08,390 --> 04:37:07,359
i don't want to be crazy and something

8168
04:37:10,150 --> 04:37:08,400
that you mentioned

8169
04:37:11,750 --> 04:37:10,160
which is which is known in the

8170
04:37:13,269 --> 04:37:11,760
literature is that psychosis is not

8171
04:37:14,070 --> 04:37:13,279
necessarily a mental disorder but an

8172
04:37:16,070 --> 04:37:14,080
incompatibility

8173
04:37:17,349 --> 04:37:16,080
between you and the culture and i can

8174
04:37:18,949 --> 04:37:17,359
imagine that people

8175
04:37:20,310 --> 04:37:18,959
who if i was to go to a psych ward and

8176
04:37:21,750 --> 04:37:20,320
talk to schizos that they would say yes

8177
04:37:22,869 --> 04:37:21,760
yes this is not what it is there's no

8178
04:37:24,629 --> 04:37:22,879
and then people would think they're

8179
04:37:25,910 --> 04:37:24,639
crazy but i would be like no no they're

8180
04:37:28,230 --> 04:37:25,920
actually on to something

8181
04:37:29,590 --> 04:37:28,240
they're the true enlightened ones it's

8182
04:37:31,349 --> 04:37:29,600
just we

8183
04:37:33,029 --> 04:37:31,359
who aren't able to accept it and i

8184
04:37:33,429 --> 04:37:33,039
didn't want to go to a ward and then i

8185
04:37:35,029 --> 04:37:33,439
was like

8186
04:37:36,709 --> 04:37:35,039
i don't want another part of my mind to

8187
04:37:37,269 --> 04:37:36,719
tell me to kill myself or to kill

8188
04:37:39,910 --> 04:37:37,279
someone

8189
04:37:41,429 --> 04:37:39,920
and i'm not suicidal in the least but

8190
04:37:42,869 --> 04:37:41,439
coming from a place of a different part

8191
04:37:44,551 --> 04:37:42,879
of me telling me what to do

8192
04:37:47,349 --> 04:37:44,561
i was worried and then i took some

8193
04:37:49,670 --> 04:37:47,359
lorazepam to calm me down

8194
04:37:50,789 --> 04:37:49,680
and then i i had to go downstairs to the

8195
04:37:52,551 --> 04:37:50,799
concierge and say

8196
04:37:54,390 --> 04:37:52,561
can you call me an ambulance i was alone

8197
04:37:56,150 --> 04:37:54,400
right and then and then they did

8198
04:37:57,910 --> 04:37:56,160
they were like freaked out and i was

8199
04:37:59,830 --> 04:37:57,920
talking to people saying look i

8200
04:38:01,429 --> 04:37:59,840
i know that this sounds crazy i'm not

8201
04:38:02,789 --> 04:38:01,439
crazy but i don't want to kill myself

8202
04:38:04,150 --> 04:38:02,799
and there's a police officer there at

8203
04:38:05,349 --> 04:38:04,160
one point i'm like i just want you to

8204
04:38:05,910 --> 04:38:05,359
know i know i don't want to reach for

8205
04:38:07,830 --> 04:38:05,920
your gun

8206
04:38:09,429 --> 04:38:07,840
i don't know what i'm going to do like

8207
04:38:10,789 --> 04:38:09,439
and the police officer was like oh

8208
04:38:11,590 --> 04:38:10,799
that's that's fine you're okay you're

8209
04:38:13,109 --> 04:38:11,600
okay

8210
04:38:15,189 --> 04:38:13,119
and then as soon as the ambulance came

8211
04:38:18,390 --> 04:38:15,199
checked my heart i felt calm

8212
04:38:19,349 --> 04:38:18,400
but since then i'm like oh man i don't

8213
04:38:23,349 --> 04:38:19,359
want to have

8214
04:38:26,709 --> 04:38:23,359
i don't want to oh man bernardo man like

8215
04:38:29,029 --> 04:38:26,719
i don't want to question reality

8216
04:38:29,910 --> 04:38:29,039
but at the same time my job is it like

8217
04:38:33,109 --> 04:38:29,920
doing this is

8218
04:38:36,070 --> 04:38:33,119
it once you open that pandora's box

8219
04:38:38,470 --> 04:38:36,080
you cannot put the demons back the way

8220
04:38:41,910 --> 04:38:38,480
to go about it is to learn how to deal

8221
04:38:44,310 --> 04:38:41,920
with the demons in a functional way that

8222
04:38:46,230 --> 04:38:44,320
doesn't take you out of life in society

8223
04:38:47,670 --> 04:38:46,240
but our normal state of consciousness is

8224
04:38:49,750 --> 04:38:47,680
adaptive

8225
04:38:51,349 --> 04:38:49,760
it's not made to give you access to

8226
04:38:53,429 --> 04:38:51,359
truth it's made to

8227
04:38:56,310 --> 04:38:53,439
adapt you to the circumstances of our

8228
04:38:58,390 --> 04:38:56,320
living even our cultural consciousness

8229
04:39:00,390 --> 04:38:58,400
is adaptive well as well it allows you

8230
04:39:02,629 --> 04:39:00,400
to get a job to be a reliable

8231
04:39:05,349 --> 04:39:02,639
co-worker to be a reliable partner and

8232
04:39:10,629 --> 04:39:09,269
so i i don't poo poo uh psychotic states

8233
04:39:13,349 --> 04:39:10,639
of consciousness as

8234
04:39:13,750 --> 04:39:13,359
obviously and true not any more than

8235
04:39:16,470 --> 04:39:13,760
this

8236
04:39:17,349 --> 04:39:16,480
state of consciousness right now is also

8237
04:39:19,670 --> 04:39:17,359
untrue

8238
04:39:21,590 --> 04:39:19,680
if you know what i mean i wouldn't go as

8239
04:39:24,390 --> 04:39:21,600
far as to romanticize

8240
04:39:25,590 --> 04:39:24,400
psychosis as to think that people

8241
04:39:28,551 --> 04:39:25,600
undergoing psychosis

8242
04:39:30,551 --> 04:39:28,561
are enlightened i think mind has this

8243
04:39:32,789 --> 04:39:30,561
proclivity to deceive itself in many

8244
04:39:36,150 --> 04:39:32,799
different ways and that's another way of

8245
04:39:36,470 --> 04:39:36,160
deception as well could they have access

8246
04:39:40,070 --> 04:39:36,480
to

8247
04:39:43,270 --> 04:39:40,080
do not

8248
04:39:45,110 --> 04:39:43,280
ordinarily have access very well that's

8249
04:39:47,590 --> 04:39:45,120
possible yeah it's very all possible

8250
04:39:48,390 --> 04:39:47,600
but the important thing is what people

8251
04:39:50,150 --> 04:39:48,400
make of it

8252
04:39:51,750 --> 04:39:50,160
and that's where people go wrong it's

8253
04:39:54,708 --> 04:39:51,760
trying to interpret

8254
04:39:55,750 --> 04:39:54,718
that information and weaving a story

8255
04:39:58,230 --> 04:39:55,760
about that

8256
04:39:59,590 --> 04:39:58,240
that story can be highly dysfunctional

8257
04:40:02,868 --> 04:39:59,600
and and deceptive

8258
04:40:04,708 --> 04:40:02,878
it can be literally untrue

8259
04:40:06,470 --> 04:40:04,718
so we have to make this distinction

8260
04:40:09,590 --> 04:40:06,480
between accessing

8261
04:40:11,910 --> 04:40:09,600
unthreaded ground in the river of mind

8262
04:40:14,708 --> 04:40:11,920
which is just outside the boundaries of

8263
04:40:17,750 --> 04:40:14,718
what is functional and adaptive

8264
04:40:19,910 --> 04:40:17,760
and interpreting what you access

8265
04:40:20,788 --> 04:40:19,920
in those altered states of consciousness

8266
04:40:23,030 --> 04:40:20,798
and i think

8267
04:40:24,230 --> 04:40:23,040
people tend to go faulty in the

8268
04:40:26,868 --> 04:40:24,240
interpretation

8269
04:40:28,708 --> 04:40:26,878
it's what people call psychedelic noses

8270
04:40:30,550 --> 04:40:28,718
that if they have a hallucination about

8271
04:40:32,390 --> 04:40:30,560
talking to aliens in the play ideas they

8272
04:40:34,150 --> 04:40:32,400
come back and say well there are aliens

8273
04:40:34,708 --> 04:40:34,160
in the play that is very interested in

8274
04:40:37,750 --> 04:40:34,718
our

8275
04:40:40,788 --> 04:40:37,760
political system

8276
04:40:44,070 --> 04:40:40,798
well i wouldn't go that far because

8277
04:40:46,390 --> 04:40:44,080
mind has this inherent seems to have